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now I'm 23 that's a very nasty case of

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hiccups welcome to the skeptic zone the

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podcast from Australia for science and

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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show number 37 for the third of July

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2009 this is Carly Sturgis filling in

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for Richard and Stefan unfortunately

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Richard seems to have the skeptic flu

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poor dear anyway he'll still be joining

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us later in the show for the think tank

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so send your best wishes to Richard

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firstly we have dr. Rachel Dunlop

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talking to Simon Singh himself he'll be

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coming to Australia and touring in

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Adelaide and now Sydney where I know you

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can get tickets from the University of

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Sydney website you can hear all about

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his continuing legal battle with british

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chiropractors then we have my review of

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the new book from richard wiseman 59

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seconds think a little change a lot

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which is only just being released out in

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the UK that will be followed by a grain

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of salt with Iran segev now let's get

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into the zone but first let's hear about

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the Australian city Perth with a

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population of around 1.5 million people

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has something in common with many other

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cities there's crimes to be solved

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people searching for missing loved ones

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and cases of psychics claiming that

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they're the answer now it's rather the

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media do a story that's critical of

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so-called psychic investigators and I'm

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personally of the opinion that most are

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genuinely deluded or confused into

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thinking that they have the ability to

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solve crimes rather than just evil

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people on june the 27th the west

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australian sunday times newspaper

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reported that WA detectives resorted to

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using a psychic medium who claims to

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speak to the dead in the hunt for

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Corinne Rainey's killer according to a

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new book that will be published next

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month now the case revolves around

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Corinne rainy who disappeared after

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dance class at Bentley community center

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on August the 7th 2007 her body was

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discovered a week later in a bush grave

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a king's park in central Perth Debbie

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Maloney told The Sunday Times that the

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police gave her mrs. Rainey's diary as

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an energy source so she can perform a

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technique known as psychometry where

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people communicate with the dead and see

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past present and future events there is

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a statement by the police yesterday WA

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Police spokesman Neil stanberry declined

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to respond to maloneys assertions or

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categorically deny that detectives

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involved in operation dargan the

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investigation into mrs. Rainey's murder

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had used the services of Maloney instead

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he issued a statement saying WA Police

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does not use psychics or seek their

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services however for any person contacts

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police with what they believe is

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important information about a crime we

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will consider what they have to provide

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he said that police did not publicly

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comment about each person they spoke to

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as a part of their investigations now

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whilst the Sunday Times newspaper was

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allowing Maloney a vehicle to tout her

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psychic detective claims the daily

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newspaper The West Australian had a

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different story to put forward some of

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the points that they raised in the

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following article were

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reported upon last year particularly the

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experiences of parent Don Spears was the

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father of one of the missing women who

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is suspected to be a victim of the

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clermont serial killer and unsolved in a

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city case since the mid-1990s the West

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Australian reported on 30th of june with

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we won't listen to psychics Rainey

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sister the sister murdered woman Corinne

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Rainey has criticized a psychic who

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claims to have information upon her

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death saying that she's trying to profit

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from the family's grief Sharon cotton

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Howe said that yesterday her family had

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not been contacted by psychic Debbie

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Maloney and had no interest in speaking

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to her about her alleged insight into

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the murder of mrs. Rainey mrs. cotton ho

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said her family had been contacted by

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several psychics since mrs. Rainey's

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death but had declined their office of

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help she said she had read the extra for

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Maloney's new book which addressed the

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rainy case but it had offered no new

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information mrs. cotton ho was upset

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that Moloney had used her sister's

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murder as a means of publicizing a book

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everything she has said has been public

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knowledge for the last two years mrs.

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cotton ho said we are not bothering with

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psychics unless someone comes up with

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something that hasn't been made public

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it's really not worth listening to the

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father of clermont serial killer victim

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Sarah Spears also warned victims

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families not to listen to psychics

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saying yesterday they fed off misery and

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drove him to a mental breakdown Don

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Spears said up to 400 psychics and

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clairvoyants her contact him since Sarah

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disappeared on January the 27th 1996

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they'd offered false information but he

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had been so desperate to find his

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daughter that he had listened to them

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and offered had followed their

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instructions the false hope that they

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had created led him to have a breakdown

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late in 1996 when he found himself

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sitting in an armchair at home with in

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chunks of hair from his scalp mr. sphere

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said psychics like Moloney had never

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proved to be effective and just deepened

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the anguish experienced by the families

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of victims in conclusion the best

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background I can recommend is a book by

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Debbie Marshall on the Claremont serial

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killer case called The Devil's garden

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chapter 28 it reads as follows a long

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time skeptic Bret Christian who grew up

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in Claremont believes that the

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clairvoyants have proven to be one of

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the biggest problems in the macro case

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either while meaning or malicious they

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add he says nothing more than further

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heartache to those already in grief the

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saddest thing about their visions then

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not only usually wrong but they are

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foisted on people when they are their

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most vulnerable we at the skeptic zone

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will continue to monitor the claims of

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Debbie Maloney especially what she has

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so now joining us on the phone line from

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London is Simon Singh hello Simon and

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welcome to the skeptic zone it's my

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pleasure my pleasure every night to talk

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to you at last because we saw responded

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in the past every melons and so on and

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and then looking for ticket to get into

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Australia and making in person yes well

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that's part of the reason why we're

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talking to you today obviously is to

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promote your Australian tour you're

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going to be in Adelaide for the Adelaide

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Festival of ideas and we're all course

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also here to talk to you about the

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current libel case being brought against

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you by the British Chiropractic

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Association I'll get on to that in a

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moment Simon but i just wanted to start

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off by giving our listeners and aren't

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that familiar with your work a little

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bit of detail about your career to date

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you have a PhD in particle physics from

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cambridge university and you're now a

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very successful science writer and

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communicator having produced

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documentaries for the BBC and written

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four books but can you give us some idea

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about how you did your move from physics

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to science communication um yes I think

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I always wanted to be a physicist so I

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was you know thought there was nothing

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more amazing than being able to discover

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the secrets of the universe and so I did

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a degree in physics i did a PhD in

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physics I were to CERN on my PhD looking

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for the top quark and then I got to a

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point where I could just see that the

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people around me with that much quicker

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and smarter and sharper than me and I

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thought you know if people are going to

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make great discoveries it's going to be

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then and probably not me and so in my

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mid-20s I decided to move out of physics

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research and and thought well if I can't

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do physics research and maybe the next

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best thing is to be able to write about

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it and talk about it and so that's what

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I made the move into first into TV I

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worked on a TV series called tomorrow's

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world which i think is probably a bit

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like beyond 2000

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it's a very popular science magazine

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show on TV Darren a documentaries I made

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a documentary about a fair Mars Last

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Theorem for the most notorious problem

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in the history of math and it was a very

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successful program and it was such an

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amazing story it's a great mathematical

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story but it's also a story about

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assuming obsession and childhood

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ambition and all sorts of very human

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thing so that's what I decided to write

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a book about the same subject and and

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since then I've been writing probably

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more than being involved in in broadcast

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media mmm well do did you work much in

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research you mentioned stone that you

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did during a PhD but do you ever miss

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doing that kind of thing um I do because

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well you know what because I'm a science

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to enlist you know I'm talk to the

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scientists I'm hearing about the

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wonderful things they're doing and you

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know you visit labs and anything was

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amazing i was back concerned just a few

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weeks ago looking at the new experiments

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that they're going to be up and running

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again in September um but I have

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tremendous fun doing what I'm doing as a

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science journalist and it's sort of was

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I think I was supposed to do because i

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love you know learning different ideas

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from different areas of science and i

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enjoyed thinking about different ways to

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make those ideas exciting and

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interesting to a general audience and so

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I think I just ended up doing the thing

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that I was supposed to do all along

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perhaps but I couldn't do what I do do

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now if I hadn't been through that

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process of doing a PhD that was a

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tremendous insight into how science

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works and with a stepping stone towards

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what i do now also things like a wood

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while i was in college i taught in south

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africa for a while i taught in india so

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again just teaching and talking two

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small kids about science you know helped

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develop skills which many years later

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turned actually really valuable for

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there's odd combination experiences i've

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had along the way have helped me become

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a massage right of the lion today

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yeah it's it's funny actually Simon

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because i myself have a PhD in cell

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biology research but i also do a lot of

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science communication i do a children's

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show science our children show with with

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Richard Saunders the producer of this

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podcast and I'm starting to move into

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that area too but I'm worried I'm going

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to miss the bench you know I really do

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like getting in there and getting my

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hands dirty and you know making things

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blow up and and all that sort of stuff

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it's it's fascinating work really fun

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stuff yes it is it and I mean I mean the

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great thing is you can do both you know

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you know necessary have to make the leap

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one way or the other but but but it's

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interesting is he working with young

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children I remember when I first wrote a

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00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:18,300
book I give talks in museums and

275
00:12:23,390 --> 00:12:21,090
bookshops and you talk to grown-ups who

276
00:12:24,620 --> 00:12:23,400
were clearly clearly interested in what

277
00:12:26,690 --> 00:12:24,630
you were saying because they'd walked

278
00:12:28,670 --> 00:12:26,700
all the way to the museum to come and

279
00:12:31,130 --> 00:12:28,680
hear you speak but when you talk to

280
00:12:33,710 --> 00:12:31,140
school kids you know half the kids in

281
00:12:36,290 --> 00:12:33,720
the class may not be that turned on by

282
00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:36,300
science so you have to work harder to

283
00:12:41,420 --> 00:12:37,920
get them interested and you develop

284
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:41,430
tricks and ideas and to make the science

285
00:12:46,070 --> 00:12:43,530
relevant or interesting or or or

286
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:46,080
enticing and then you take those tricks

287
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,730
and ideas and you present them back to

288
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:49,680
the grown-ups and the grown-ups love

289
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:52,530
them just as much so I found that why i

290
00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:55,050
lecture too grown up to those developed

291
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:57,210
out of the ideas that I use when I'm

292
00:13:01,700 --> 00:12:58,800
trying to get kids excited about those

293
00:13:04,430 --> 00:13:01,710
same ideas so we we've you know we've

294
00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:04,440
done big theater project here in London

295
00:13:09,170 --> 00:13:07,320
and again a lot of fear Tigers come out

296
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:09,180
of work we've done with wicked yeah

297
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:11,130
that's true we find the same thing in

298
00:13:15,310 --> 00:13:13,410
fact we do it show that we do for very

299
00:13:18,350 --> 00:13:15,320
young kids sort of between the ages of

300
00:13:20,030 --> 00:13:18,360
sort of five up to eight years old and

301
00:13:21,980 --> 00:13:20,040
then we'll do it for kids in high school

302
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:21,990
and we don't have to change that much

303
00:13:26,210 --> 00:13:23,760
and then we do this a similar show to

304
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:26,220
the high school show for adults and they

305
00:13:33,830 --> 00:13:30,330
all they all love it yeah i mean its

306
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:33,840
eyes a little bit part we talking to

307
00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:35,130
grown ups as though they were five year

308
00:13:40,250 --> 00:13:38,910
olds but it's and there's a

309
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:40,260
demonstration which I won't describe

310
00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:42,000
because it's quite dangerous I wouldn't

311
00:13:46,199 --> 00:13:44,110
want anybody else to repeat it but but

312
00:13:48,990 --> 00:13:46,209
yeah but some of these demonstrations

313
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:49,000
are just amazing whatever age you are

314
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:51,730
and they capture people attention and it

315
00:13:56,519 --> 00:13:54,730
gives you that wow moment and then eats

316
00:13:57,870 --> 00:13:56,529
the questions and arrived at event the

317
00:13:59,250 --> 00:13:57,880
question that a five-year-old the last

318
00:14:02,130 --> 00:13:59,260
will be very different from the question

319
00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:02,140
to the Graduate would ask or somebody

320
00:14:07,410 --> 00:14:04,320
else but they're all inspired by that

321
00:14:11,370 --> 00:14:07,420
magical moment that suddenly brought the

322
00:14:13,410 --> 00:14:11,380
fire alive mmm yeah well you mentioned

323
00:14:14,759 --> 00:14:13,420
science communication and journalism as

324
00:14:17,550 --> 00:14:14,769
well which is something that you do a

325
00:14:19,620 --> 00:14:17,560
lot of there has been quite a lot of

326
00:14:21,210 --> 00:14:19,630
criticism of late of the quality of

327
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:21,220
science journalism and in particular

328
00:14:27,180 --> 00:14:23,110
this is something that Ben Goldacre does

329
00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:27,190
a lot of what's your opinion of the

330
00:14:30,060 --> 00:14:28,630
quality of science journalism in the

331
00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:30,070
world now do you think that it's under

332
00:14:37,139 --> 00:14:35,230
threat oh if it's a complicated it's a

333
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:37,149
really complicated picture movement just

334
00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:40,510
this week in fact tomorrow is the World

335
00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:42,160
Federation of science journalists a

336
00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:45,519
meeting in London and so they'll be 600

337
00:14:50,220 --> 00:14:46,649
journalist from all over the world

338
00:14:52,439 --> 00:14:50,230
meeting to talk about different ideas in

339
00:14:54,180 --> 00:14:52,449
science that are emerging and the

340
00:14:58,110 --> 00:14:54,190
different issues confronting sighs turns

341
00:15:01,110 --> 00:14:58,120
around the world and the scientists that

342
00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:01,120
are bothering to come to London are the

343
00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:03,040
specialists science correspondence and

344
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:05,800
they probably have a scientific

345
00:15:12,030 --> 00:15:08,800
background and they certainly care about

346
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:12,040
science and they're the best science

347
00:15:16,019 --> 00:15:13,690
correspondence we have that they're

348
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:16,029
great and they they do a great job and

349
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:18,399
that's fantastic the problem is when

350
00:15:23,250 --> 00:15:21,490
science becomes a really big story it

351
00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:23,260
often gets taken out of the hands of the

352
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:26,190
science correspondent and gets given to

353
00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:28,690
whoever's writing for the front page or

354
00:15:33,569 --> 00:15:30,940
whoever the the columnist is it's got

355
00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:33,579
you know the most sensational column in

356
00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:36,910
the newspaper and so on and and that's

357
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:39,670
when you when there's a concern of the

358
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:41,850
science being distorted or

359
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:45,040
sensationalized or you either have on

360
00:15:50,850 --> 00:15:47,290
one extreme scare mongering or on the

361
00:15:53,699 --> 00:15:50,860
other extreme miracle cure and that

362
00:15:56,340 --> 00:15:53,709
that's the concern I think is that split

363
00:15:57,569 --> 00:15:56,350
between the credible science journalist

364
00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:57,579
who really know what they're doing you

365
00:16:01,499 --> 00:15:57,970
just

366
00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:01,509
job and the non-specialist who often get

367
00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:03,180
hold of the wrong end of the stick and

368
00:16:08,639 --> 00:16:06,310
who are generally keen to sensationalize

369
00:16:11,340 --> 00:16:08,649
anyway and who then distort the subject

370
00:16:13,319 --> 00:16:11,350
on important issues whether it's genetic

371
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:13,329
modification whether it's global warming

372
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:15,490
or whether it's swine flu or MMR or

373
00:16:19,259 --> 00:16:17,350
whatever and I think they're real

374
00:16:21,749 --> 00:16:19,269
concerns about the way science is

375
00:16:24,179 --> 00:16:21,759
reported by the general non-specialist

376
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:24,189
early yes what MMA is a very good

377
00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:26,410
example of that particularly in the UK

378
00:16:31,470 --> 00:16:28,870
is and that I mean that campaign has

379
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:31,480
been attributed or at least a part of it

380
00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:33,370
to the fact that it was reported in the

381
00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:36,399
mainstream media quite incorrectly I

382
00:16:40,110 --> 00:16:38,769
guess you could say and that's resulted

383
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:40,120
in a huge drop in the rate of

384
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:43,360
vaccination for MMR in in the UK which

385
00:16:46,679 --> 00:16:45,279
of course is now still a problem and of

386
00:16:48,749 --> 00:16:46,689
course it's a problem across the rest of

387
00:16:54,210 --> 00:16:48,759
the world including Australia we see it

388
00:16:58,439 --> 00:16:54,220
here as well yes and with interesting to

389
00:16:59,369 --> 00:16:58,449
see how that all unfolded generally sort

390
00:17:01,889 --> 00:16:59,379
of thought well this is such an

391
00:17:03,689 --> 00:17:01,899
important story it's about parents and

392
00:17:05,250 --> 00:17:03,699
about their children and we must get the

393
00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:05,260
message out there and if NMR is

394
00:17:09,419 --> 00:17:07,600
dangerous we must we must save these

395
00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:09,429
babies from this terrible harm is being

396
00:17:12,929 --> 00:17:10,900
inflicted on them and we must make

397
00:17:14,429 --> 00:17:12,939
parents aware of it and suddenly the

398
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:14,439
stores were splashed on the front page

399
00:17:18,510 --> 00:17:16,959
and that you know the colonists would

400
00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:18,520
want to have their opinion and another

401
00:17:21,779 --> 00:17:20,079
columnist would they were my friends and

402
00:17:23,939 --> 00:17:21,789
mother and her child had this or that

403
00:17:27,210 --> 00:17:23,949
and it became about personal experiences

404
00:17:30,539 --> 00:17:27,220
and one-off stories and anecdotes and

405
00:17:32,730 --> 00:17:30,549
which other lobby group to get access to

406
00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:32,740
the journalists would would have the

407
00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:35,470
most coverage and it was also this idea

408
00:17:40,590 --> 00:17:37,840
of balance though the year has one

409
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:40,600
scientist he says that there's no good

410
00:17:44,789 --> 00:17:42,610
evidence whatsoever to suggest that the

411
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:44,799
MMR vaccine a dangerous you have to

412
00:17:50,850 --> 00:17:47,770
balance that with potentially the

413
00:17:53,370 --> 00:17:50,860
renegade scientist the maverick who

414
00:17:55,860 --> 00:17:53,380
disagrees all the mother with the

415
00:17:59,399 --> 00:17:55,870
heart-rending story on the other side

416
00:18:02,250 --> 00:17:59,409
and that that's not really a fair fight

417
00:18:03,659 --> 00:18:02,260
because if you've got 99 percent of

418
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:03,669
scientists saying one thing and one

419
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:06,640
percent saying the other well from the

420
00:18:09,870 --> 00:18:08,320
listeners point of view all the hearing

421
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:09,880
is a one-on-one fight between two

422
00:18:14,340 --> 00:18:11,770
scientists it looks like opinions of

423
00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:14,350
I did the journalist really struggle

424
00:18:19,710 --> 00:18:15,700
with this idea of balance because

425
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:19,720
balance in a ways if part of you know

426
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:22,210
the core of journalism but but if the

427
00:18:26,460 --> 00:18:24,970
evidence is so one sided I think what

428
00:18:29,070 --> 00:18:26,470
scientists feel is it is unfair to

429
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:29,080
represent a balance in evidence and but

430
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:32,130
by by having a balance of interviewees

431
00:18:37,230 --> 00:18:34,690
yes that's true i mean that happens in

432
00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:37,240
this country as well and the one percent

433
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:39,580
is a lobby group with respect to the

434
00:18:43,980 --> 00:18:42,490
anti back slowly group here and i have

435
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:43,990
spoken to journalists myself personally

436
00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:45,850
who are interviewing me about that issue

437
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:48,070
and they'll say well we have to speak to

438
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:49,930
the other side and i've tried to explain

439
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:52,480
that to them but as you say it's very

440
00:18:56,250 --> 00:18:54,130
difficult for them to understand that

441
00:18:57,900 --> 00:18:56,260
that's the one percent fringe as opposed

442
00:19:03,690 --> 00:18:57,910
to the ninety-nine percent of evidence

443
00:19:05,910 --> 00:19:03,700
but yeah I because I'm in Australia it's

444
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:05,920
for child to go to school with

445
00:19:14,190 --> 00:19:10,930
vaccination essential no it's not it's

446
00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:14,200
not enforced children are given a book

447
00:19:18,570 --> 00:19:17,320
which details their vaccination schedule

448
00:19:20,790 --> 00:19:18,580
and whether or not they've handled their

449
00:19:27,030 --> 00:19:20,800
vaccinations but there are exemptions

450
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:27,040
available it's not enforced I mean it's

451
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:28,570
a discussion it's emerging in this

452
00:19:33,090 --> 00:19:30,450
country as to whether that would be a

453
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:33,100
good thing or a bad thing or how it

454
00:19:36,930 --> 00:19:35,050
would be enforced and so on and I think

455
00:19:40,110 --> 00:19:36,940
that's a really interesting discussion

456
00:19:43,890 --> 00:19:40,120
that journalist and the public and

457
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:43,900
teachers and parents can have you know

458
00:19:48,060 --> 00:19:45,970
bringing their own opinion as to whether

459
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:48,070
that would be effective or how it might

460
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:52,330
work but that that discussion has to be

461
00:19:56,820 --> 00:19:54,400
based on the science and scientific

462
00:20:00,000 --> 00:19:56,830
facts that were fairly certain off as

463
00:20:02,820 --> 00:20:00,010
opposed to the discussion being about

464
00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:02,830
the scientific facts between renegades

465
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:05,260
and Mavericks and lobby groups against

466
00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:06,490
the scientists who sort of know what

467
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:08,830
they're talking about so there's

468
00:20:12,810 --> 00:20:10,330
certainly a role for public discussion

469
00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:12,820
of the issues but those that public

470
00:20:17,010 --> 00:20:15,190
discussion has to be based on the best

471
00:20:18,810 --> 00:20:17,020
available evidence yeah absolutely

472
00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:18,820
actually I've read a little bit of

473
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:20,380
coverage of that recently there was an

474
00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:22,510
article written i think it was in The

475
00:20:25,529 --> 00:20:24,670
Guardian in fact a couple of articles

476
00:20:27,389 --> 00:20:25,539
and one of them

477
00:20:29,129 --> 00:20:27,399
saying that they should be special

478
00:20:32,940 --> 00:20:29,139
schools for people that don't get their

479
00:20:36,269 --> 00:20:32,950
kids vaccinated by mm okay yeah I've

480
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:36,279
been exactly idea yeah anyway let's get

481
00:20:39,989 --> 00:20:37,690
on to the British Chiropractic

482
00:20:43,769 --> 00:20:39,999
Association Simon which is what we want

483
00:20:45,299 --> 00:20:43,779
to talk about now you are currently and

484
00:20:47,489 --> 00:20:45,309
I know this some of this you can't

485
00:20:48,989 --> 00:20:47,499
discuss for legal reasons but can you

486
00:20:51,690 --> 00:20:48,999
just explain briefly to our listeners

487
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:51,700
about the case that the BCA has brought

488
00:20:58,249 --> 00:20:55,210
against you for defamation or libel yes

489
00:21:01,680 --> 00:20:58,259
sure I'm interesting history first I am

490
00:21:04,580 --> 00:21:01,690
my background is in physics and my first

491
00:21:08,009 --> 00:21:04,590
three books were sort of about

492
00:21:12,269 --> 00:21:08,019
mathematics or cosmology or technology

493
00:21:14,190 --> 00:21:12,279
in the form of cryptography and it was

494
00:21:15,930 --> 00:21:14,200
quite a jump when I moved from from

495
00:21:18,180 --> 00:21:15,940
those kind of subject to writing about

496
00:21:21,659 --> 00:21:18,190
alternative medicine and the reason I

497
00:21:24,239 --> 00:21:21,669
made that jump was because I was aware

498
00:21:26,609 --> 00:21:24,249
of young students using homeopathy to

499
00:21:30,029 --> 00:21:26,619
protect themselves against malaria which

500
00:21:32,039 --> 00:21:30,039
is a patently ridiculous thing to do but

501
00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:32,049
these students who are pretty smart more

502
00:21:37,589 --> 00:21:35,830
obviously being said bad advice about

503
00:21:39,930 --> 00:21:37,599
the supposed claims of homeopathy

504
00:21:41,159 --> 00:21:39,940
homeopathy yeah there's no reason why

505
00:21:43,289 --> 00:21:41,169
homeopathy should protect anybody

506
00:21:44,879 --> 00:21:43,299
against malaria and then however it's

507
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:44,889
the suggested handle either and

508
00:21:50,969 --> 00:21:48,369
therefore it will be very unwise for

509
00:21:52,830 --> 00:21:50,979
student to take homeopathy thinking

510
00:21:54,659 --> 00:21:52,840
might protect them against malaria but

511
00:21:58,349 --> 00:21:54,669
this was happening so I did a little

512
00:22:00,989 --> 00:21:58,359
investigation and a young student

513
00:22:02,820 --> 00:22:00,999
approached han homeopath and every

514
00:22:05,399 --> 00:22:02,830
single one of these ten homeopaths was

515
00:22:07,649 --> 00:22:05,409
willing to give her homeopathy to

516
00:22:09,089 --> 00:22:07,659
protect her on what she said she was

517
00:22:12,659 --> 00:22:09,099
going to be going on a 10-week truck to

518
00:22:14,969 --> 00:22:12,669
a West Africa so that made me realize it

519
00:22:17,249 --> 00:22:14,979
that there's a lot of misinformation

520
00:22:19,889 --> 00:22:17,259
about alternative therapies some of it

521
00:22:21,539 --> 00:22:19,899
may be potentially dangerous maybe

522
00:22:24,659 --> 00:22:21,549
there's not pretentious to investigate

523
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:24,669
this and to look at the evidence for a

524
00:22:28,739 --> 00:22:27,369
range of alternative therapies to talk

525
00:22:30,539 --> 00:22:28,749
about evidence in general Howard

526
00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:30,549
evidence accumulated in medicine what is

527
00:22:34,769 --> 00:22:32,289
evidence-based medicine what a clinical

528
00:22:36,330 --> 00:22:34,779
trials how they work and what do they

529
00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:36,340
say about the range of alternative

530
00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:38,950
therapies and so I started writing a

531
00:22:42,330 --> 00:22:39,430
book

532
00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:42,340
trickle treatments which I co-authored

533
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:46,630
with Professor EDS other beds added the

534
00:22:52,110 --> 00:22:48,730
world's first professor of alternative

535
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:52,120
medicine and so he spent the last 15

536
00:22:58,170 --> 00:22:54,490
years looking at all of the evidence and

537
00:23:01,350 --> 00:22:58,180
the idea was to take his research to

538
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:01,360
fate other people's research and tell

539
00:23:05,550 --> 00:23:03,250
the public about what works and what

540
00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:05,560
doesn't work what's safe and what's

541
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:08,590
dangerous and the picture is complicated

542
00:23:12,030 --> 00:23:09,810
you have to look each therapy

543
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:12,040
individually because some of them

544
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:14,710
actually do seem to work and many others

545
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:16,330
don't but we you know we put a look at

546
00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:19,930
the evidence in order to decide and when

547
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:22,240
the book was published back in april two

548
00:23:28,250 --> 00:23:25,410
thousand eight i wrote a few articles

549
00:23:30,650 --> 00:23:28,260
and one of the answers i wrote about

550
00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:30,660
what were well as i wrote with a bad

551
00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:35,230
chiropractic and yes because there's a

552
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:36,790
whole chapter in your book simon on

553
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:39,520
chiropractic isn't there that's why yes

554
00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:43,570
and many people work with chiropractic

555
00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:46,060
real turnip if you know it's just spinal

556
00:23:49,530 --> 00:23:47,710
manipulation and missing liberate the

557
00:23:52,530 --> 00:23:49,540
spine will fix somebody's back you know

558
00:23:54,810 --> 00:23:52,540
that sounds very reasonable and it's

559
00:23:56,670 --> 00:23:54,820
fairly reasonable and there's some

560
00:23:58,980 --> 00:23:56,680
evidence to show the chiropractor's can

561
00:24:01,500 --> 00:23:58,990
help with back problems I don't think

562
00:24:02,910 --> 00:24:01,510
it's very convincing evidence but the

563
00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:02,920
back problems are notoriously difficult

564
00:24:09,050 --> 00:24:06,760
so you know if nothing else works in

565
00:24:13,290 --> 00:24:09,060
chiropractic maybe what what helps you

566
00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:13,300
but my concern in the article was the

567
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:14,950
fact that chiropractors were sometimes

568
00:24:21,030 --> 00:24:18,570
making claims that go beyond the back

569
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:21,040
and this goes back to their historical

570
00:24:24,810 --> 00:24:22,930
roots if you go back to the invention of

571
00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:24,820
chiropractic by a chap called Daniel

572
00:24:31,170 --> 00:24:27,460
Parma parlor believed he could treat

573
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:31,180
anything by spinal manipulation because

574
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:33,730
the spine carried what he called a mate

575
00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:35,890
energy through to the rest of the

576
00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:37,900
nervous system through to the rest of

577
00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:41,110
the body so if you add s the reason you

578
00:24:44,550 --> 00:24:42,430
were death was because there was a

579
00:24:46,650 --> 00:24:44,560
blockage in the innate energy in your

580
00:24:49,260 --> 00:24:46,660
spine which wasn't getting through to

581
00:24:51,390 --> 00:24:49,270
your ear and therefore if you fix the

582
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:51,400
spine you can fix the deafness and in

583
00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:53,360
fact the first perfectly cured

584
00:24:58,180 --> 00:24:55,910
was a profoundly deaf man in America

585
00:25:01,270 --> 00:24:58,190
second person teachers have had serious

586
00:25:03,580 --> 00:25:01,280
heart disease yeah that that's the root

587
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:03,590
of chiropractic now a lot of that

588
00:25:09,970 --> 00:25:06,490
disappeared and most chiropractors

589
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:09,980
mainly deal with back problems but some

590
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:12,110
of them still claim to treat childhood

591
00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:14,960
conditions like asthma colic ear

592
00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:17,809
infections and so on and that's where my

593
00:25:23,980 --> 00:25:21,350
article was really centered I I question

594
00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:23,990
the evidence on that and the British

595
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:25,790
Chiropractic Association sued me for

596
00:25:33,340 --> 00:25:31,760
libel yes yeah and so the interesting

597
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:33,350
thing about this case though and I

598
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:35,330
wanted to ask you a little bit about the

599
00:25:39,669 --> 00:25:37,490
libraries in the UK as well because

600
00:25:40,990 --> 00:25:39,679
they're quite different to Australia but

601
00:25:44,140 --> 00:25:41,000
the interesting thing about this was

602
00:25:46,030 --> 00:25:44,150
when you went to court the judge defined

603
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:46,040
the word bogus which I believe you used

604
00:25:50,380 --> 00:25:48,530
in your article as a different meaning

605
00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:50,390
to what you intended to believe is that

606
00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:53,030
correct I'm sorry what you intended to

607
00:25:58,750 --> 00:25:56,000
mean yeah I mean to go back one step I

608
00:26:02,650 --> 00:25:58,760
mean I think you know if there was a

609
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:02,660
misunderstanding then the best

610
00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:04,850
chiropractic association will offer the

611
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:06,559
right of reply in the guard and they had

612
00:26:09,909 --> 00:26:08,090
500 words where they could have written

613
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:09,919
their their account or their view or

614
00:26:18,220 --> 00:26:12,770
showing their evidence they were offered

615
00:26:20,890 --> 00:26:18,230
a clarification but they seem to prefer

616
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:20,900
taking a legal option so we ended up

617
00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:23,690
going to court and we haven't had the

618
00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:27,470
full trial yet but but before that we

619
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:30,049
had a ruling on meaning which even go to

620
00:26:35,230 --> 00:26:32,809
the high court and the judge says this

621
00:26:36,669 --> 00:26:35,240
is what your article means so that when

622
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:36,679
we do have the trial we know what we're

623
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:39,679
arguing about and the judge decided that

624
00:26:46,630 --> 00:26:43,850
I was not only saying that these

625
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:46,640
treatments aren't backed by evidence but

626
00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:48,730
that the chiropractors are also

627
00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:52,190
deliberately dishonest in using these

628
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:53,870
treatments so it's not that their

629
00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:55,250
interpretation of the evidence is

630
00:27:01,000 --> 00:26:57,760
different from mine is that they

631
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:01,010
actively and dishonestly promote

632
00:27:05,290 --> 00:27:02,510
treatments that they know to be

633
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:05,300
ineffective I don't think that's that I

634
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:06,890
know that's not what I meant

635
00:27:10,180 --> 00:27:08,330
and I don't think that's what a

636
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:10,190
reasonable interpretation of the article

637
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:11,210
is which is why we're currently

638
00:27:16,690 --> 00:27:13,090
appealing the judge's ruling on meaning

639
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:16,700
the judge took the phrase happily

640
00:27:23,260 --> 00:27:19,520
promotes bogus therapies to mean

641
00:27:26,650 --> 00:27:23,270
knowingly promotes fortune of therapies

642
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:26,660
now a bogus therapy to mean I'm

643
00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:31,310
scientific I'm proven ineffective all

644
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:33,020
sorts of different meanings happily can

645
00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:37,850
mean innocently blithely unknowingly in

646
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:39,140
blissful ignorance all sorts of

647
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:42,710
different things now we are arguing and

648
00:27:45,340 --> 00:27:43,970
I think we're on failing the ground

649
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:45,350
whether we win the appeal or not I don't

650
00:27:48,790 --> 00:27:47,330
know or whether we even get her than the

651
00:27:51,940 --> 00:27:48,800
course of appeal is still is still

652
00:27:53,860 --> 00:27:51,950
debatable at the moment but if the

653
00:27:57,210 --> 00:27:53,870
content of the article is very important

654
00:28:01,030 --> 00:27:57,220
and earlier in the article I call

655
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:01,040
chiropractors and fundamentalists I say

656
00:28:08,350 --> 00:28:05,090
they have wacky ideas and so though that

657
00:28:10,210 --> 00:28:08,360
sort of paint a picture of chiropractors

658
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:10,220
has been fundamentalist having wacky

659
00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:13,610
ideas being eccentric being deluded but

660
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:16,310
not being deliberately dishonest yeah

661
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:19,490
and that's why we think the judge took

662
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:22,970
an unreasonable interpretation yes well

663
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:25,520
you have submitted your appeal and Jack

664
00:28:31,390 --> 00:28:29,330
of Kent who is a little legal blogger in

665
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:31,400
the UK has been following your case very

666
00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:34,730
closely and blogging about updates and I

667
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:37,760
believe that the reply has come in from

668
00:28:42,940 --> 00:28:40,640
the BCA and I read this on his blog just

669
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:42,950
last night and their reply is something

670
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:45,650
like 26 pages to your 12 pages of

671
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:47,810
defense is that right can you ain't

672
00:28:54,540 --> 00:28:49,970
allowed to talk about that yes it's

673
00:28:57,940 --> 00:28:54,550
slightly this dates back i think too

674
00:28:59,560 --> 00:28:57,950
probably be end of last year so these

675
00:29:03,670 --> 00:28:59,570
are late legal documents are they back

676
00:29:05,260 --> 00:29:03,680
to last year but Jack attended just got

677
00:29:07,030 --> 00:29:05,270
hold of them from the from the court

678
00:29:09,610 --> 00:29:07,040
because they're public records and

679
00:29:11,380 --> 00:29:09,620
people can access them and so he's

680
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:11,390
talking as I would have submitted my

681
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:14,240
defense hmm which is why I think my

682
00:29:19,670 --> 00:29:17,930
article was reasonable they then submit

683
00:29:22,730 --> 00:29:19,680
their reply which

684
00:29:25,340 --> 00:29:22,740
an attack on my defense and that's a

685
00:29:27,020 --> 00:29:25,350
sort of basis from which the trial will

686
00:29:28,790 --> 00:29:27,030
sort of emerged further down the road

687
00:29:32,210 --> 00:29:28,800
but I do say I think my defenses maybe

688
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:32,220
12 pages there reply think was possibly

689
00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:36,210
even 36 pages OIC ok so one of the other

690
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:37,620
things that's happened recently Simon

691
00:29:40,730 --> 00:29:38,970
and this isn't directly related to your

692
00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:40,740
case but I wanted to ask you about it

693
00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:43,830
anyway was the what's become known as

694
00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:45,960
the car apocalypse which occurred

695
00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:48,720
recently where there is it the McTeer

696
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:51,150
Mick Timoney Association of

697
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:53,850
chiropractors sent out an email to all

698
00:29:58,250 --> 00:29:55,770
their members asking them to remove any

699
00:30:00,410 --> 00:29:58,260
reference on their websites to the fact

700
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:00,420
that they treat children for colic do

701
00:30:08,330 --> 00:30:03,450
you know much about this I've been

702
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:08,340
following it on the web the I suppose it

703
00:30:12,530 --> 00:30:10,890
started with somebody submitting a

704
00:30:15,670 --> 00:30:12,540
complaint to the advertising it

705
00:30:20,810 --> 00:30:15,680
Standards Authority about one

706
00:30:22,670 --> 00:30:20,820
chiropractor promoting a chiropractic

707
00:30:24,350 --> 00:30:22,680
for the treatment colic and the

708
00:30:26,990 --> 00:30:24,360
advertising thousand authority in

709
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:27,000
Britain is pretty good they tend to look

710
00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:28,530
at the scientific evidence and if the

711
00:30:31,910 --> 00:30:29,910
scientific evidence doesn't stand up

712
00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:31,920
then they uphold the complaint and

713
00:30:34,970 --> 00:30:33,360
that's what happened in this case they

714
00:30:39,650 --> 00:30:34,980
said that this chiropractor should stop

715
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:39,660
advertising the treatment of colic and

716
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:42,690
that happened I think probably in May of

717
00:30:50,420 --> 00:30:45,770
this year which is just a few weeks ago

718
00:30:54,010 --> 00:30:50,430
after that some bloggers skeptics

719
00:30:57,260 --> 00:30:54,020
rationalist kind of got together and

720
00:31:00,560 --> 00:30:57,270
started submitting further complaints

721
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:00,570
about chiropractors I think Polly

722
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:02,910
amathaka stands Authority partly to

723
00:31:07,940 --> 00:31:06,360
trading standards partly I think to the

724
00:31:11,620 --> 00:31:07,950
general chiropractic Council as well

725
00:31:14,030 --> 00:31:11,630
that that oversees chiropractors and

726
00:31:16,340 --> 00:31:14,040
they seem to dumb if on a massive

727
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:16,350
massive scale you may know more others

728
00:31:20,210 --> 00:31:18,210
for me but I think literally there have

729
00:31:23,630 --> 00:31:20,220
been hundreds of complaints submitted

730
00:31:26,540 --> 00:31:23,640
okay there are 75 that i read about at

731
00:31:31,340 --> 00:31:26,550
least 50 that the reaction from the

732
00:31:33,890 --> 00:31:31,350
chiropractors is not surprisingly one of

733
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:33,900
shock because now all of you trial

734
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:36,450
practice are being investigated either

735
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:38,880
by advertised as Authority Trading

736
00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:40,410
Standards all the general chiropractic

737
00:31:47,270 --> 00:31:43,590
counsel and there's a huge spotlight

738
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:47,280
being shown on chiropractors he made the

739
00:31:52,460 --> 00:31:49,050
sort of planes that were mentioned in my

740
00:31:57,310 --> 00:31:52,470
article so while i'm sort of embroiled

741
00:31:59,720 --> 00:31:57,320
in a legal battle the the blogosphere

742
00:32:03,980 --> 00:31:59,730
had sort of been carrying on its own

743
00:32:07,310 --> 00:32:03,990
battle separately which is a well which

744
00:32:08,570 --> 00:32:07,320
is he's told me that evening well it's

745
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:08,580
interesting isn't it because it's a

746
00:32:12,410 --> 00:32:09,930
little bit like what happened with the

747
00:32:15,050 --> 00:32:12,420
journey Barnett and LB sating with Ben

748
00:32:19,250 --> 00:32:15,060
Goldacre late last year where they

749
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:19,260
threatened been with legal action for

750
00:32:23,810 --> 00:32:21,120
putting up the audio of her show where

751
00:32:25,370 --> 00:32:23,820
she was damning the MMR and as soon as

752
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:25,380
that got out to the blogosphere it

753
00:32:29,690 --> 00:32:27,210
became a Streisand effect and of course

754
00:32:32,330 --> 00:32:29,700
everybody found out about it and this is

755
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:32,340
a similar stance in the fact that this

756
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:34,170
email was sent to all the members of the

757
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:36,810
mech Timoney chiropractors saying do not

758
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:39,120
show this to anyone do not tell your

759
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:40,890
patients about this this email is

760
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:42,720
private and of course it was in

761
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:44,970
published on quack ometer and now

762
00:32:53,420 --> 00:32:46,620
everybody knows about it and it's gone

763
00:32:56,180 --> 00:32:53,430
global and viral yes i do know i'm i'm

764
00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:56,190
sort of in mine I get well for whatever

765
00:33:00,290 --> 00:32:58,170
reason whether AIDS related or whatever

766
00:33:02,180 --> 00:33:00,300
the reason is i'm not particularly

767
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:02,190
techie i'm not i've never really got

768
00:33:08,390 --> 00:33:05,730
into the web and facebook and the

769
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:08,400
blogosphere and so on but over the last

770
00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:12,480
year it's fascinating to see the power

771
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:15,720
of the web in this sort of situation for

772
00:33:21,860 --> 00:33:17,850
example there's a Facebook group a link

773
00:33:23,570 --> 00:33:21,870
to the libel case and I think about

774
00:33:27,890 --> 00:33:23,580
seven and a half hours of supporters now

775
00:33:30,620 --> 00:33:27,900
and and it the last year was quite lowly

776
00:33:34,580 --> 00:33:30,630
fighting this legal battle but the

777
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:34,590
support and the messages of goodwill

778
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:36,930
coming out of that group have been

779
00:33:42,590 --> 00:33:39,930
really important for me and I think it's

780
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:42,600
been a way for supporter to talk to each

781
00:33:47,970 --> 00:33:45,370
other and discuss issues and so on

782
00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:47,980
and then things like the way the

783
00:33:52,650 --> 00:33:50,500
bloggers have given really informed

784
00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:52,660
intelligent debate and discussion on

785
00:33:56,010 --> 00:33:54,760
this issue whether it's Jack of counting

786
00:33:58,170 --> 00:33:56,020
there's a very strong legal background

787
00:34:00,930 --> 00:33:58,180
to others who have a more of a

788
00:34:03,930 --> 00:34:00,940
scientific event and you can kind of

789
00:34:05,610 --> 00:34:03,940
analyze things more scientifically or

790
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:05,620
whether it's those who are more active

791
00:34:11,970 --> 00:34:08,710
and actually initiate some of these

792
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:11,980
things that are going on the powers of

793
00:34:15,899 --> 00:34:14,110
it is immense and if something I've only

794
00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:15,909
really become aware of in the last say

795
00:34:20,909 --> 00:34:18,340
six months as I've started to watch and

796
00:34:22,860 --> 00:34:20,919
monitor what's going on hmm well in

797
00:34:25,619 --> 00:34:22,870
particular sense about science have been

798
00:34:27,810 --> 00:34:25,629
critical to the to your campaign which

799
00:34:29,820 --> 00:34:27,820
is keeping libel laws out of science and

800
00:34:31,860 --> 00:34:29,830
I believe there are now last time I

801
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:31,870
checked there were 10,000 signatures on

802
00:34:40,770 --> 00:34:36,010
the petition for getting the liabilities

803
00:34:45,810 --> 00:34:40,780
in the UK changed yes sort of Mike's in

804
00:34:47,220 --> 00:34:45,820
my case is the yeah abba's I'm very

805
00:34:50,430 --> 00:34:47,230
concerned about my case and the fact

806
00:34:52,919 --> 00:34:50,440
that that my ass was being challenged

807
00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:52,929
under the liable fisting here in England

808
00:34:59,040 --> 00:34:55,990
but the bigger issue is how lively in

809
00:35:01,740 --> 00:34:59,050
general can have a slightly scary effect

810
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:01,750
or a very scary effect on journalists in

811
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:05,530
general and percent of a sign to start

812
00:35:10,020 --> 00:35:08,160
of a campaign and I'm you know I'm

813
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:10,030
closely associated with sense of a

814
00:35:16,740 --> 00:35:11,850
science and involved in the campaign

815
00:35:19,290 --> 00:35:16,750
it's about trying to with the split

816
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:19,300
limit through this way the problem with

817
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:20,890
the libel laws in England are they are

818
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:24,810
horrendously expensive you could easily

819
00:35:31,290 --> 00:35:28,330
get a bill for two million dollars at

820
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:31,300
the end of the case if you lose if

821
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:33,490
you're journalist you're pretty much

822
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:36,160
fighting an uphill battle it's very easy

823
00:35:43,410 --> 00:35:41,650
for people to bring a libel suit as a

824
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:43,420
journalist short you're guilty until

825
00:35:48,270 --> 00:35:45,850
proven innocent that's a reverse burden

826
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:48,280
of proof in Bible learning word there's

827
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:53,290
no there's no financial support for

828
00:35:57,900 --> 00:35:56,770
people as know basically completely full

829
00:35:59,160 --> 00:35:57,910
of thunder yourself if you're a

830
00:36:01,230 --> 00:35:59,170
newspaper publisher

831
00:36:03,450 --> 00:36:01,240
was a lone journalist it's a very

832
00:36:05,819 --> 00:36:03,460
difficult situation and I'm saying the

833
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:05,829
end of it if you lose you could end up

834
00:36:11,579 --> 00:36:08,530
with a two million dollar bill so when

835
00:36:14,460 --> 00:36:11,589
somebody sees you for libel the smart

836
00:36:17,849 --> 00:36:14,470
thing to do is to back out quickly and

837
00:36:20,910 --> 00:36:17,859
just to say sorry retract apologize and

838
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:20,920
can get out of it because if you win the

839
00:36:26,789 --> 00:36:24,400
case it'll take up a year of your life

840
00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:26,799
and you'll probably end up losing a few

841
00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:28,960
thousand dollars anyway because you

842
00:36:33,809 --> 00:36:31,240
never recover all of your your costs and

843
00:36:36,930 --> 00:36:33,819
you never recover your time anyway so

844
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:36,940
winning is pretty bad and losing is

845
00:36:43,470 --> 00:36:40,089
catastrophic it bad and that means that

846
00:36:45,450 --> 00:36:43,480
ever say journalists withdraw articles

847
00:36:49,140 --> 00:36:45,460
that often maybe don't need to be

848
00:36:50,910 --> 00:36:49,150
withdrawn our journalists dirt articles

849
00:36:53,910 --> 00:36:50,920
before they're printed so they take care

850
00:36:55,890 --> 00:36:53,920
anything that might possibly be sued

851
00:36:59,309 --> 00:36:55,900
later on because they don't want that

852
00:37:01,319 --> 00:36:59,319
risk and going to trial and they often

853
00:37:04,740 --> 00:37:01,329
end up you're not even writing about

854
00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:04,750
certain subjects because the risks have

855
00:37:11,569 --> 00:37:06,910
been taken to court are there and that

856
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:11,579
means you end up with a press which is

857
00:37:18,089 --> 00:37:15,520
intimidated from the get-go and so the

858
00:37:20,789 --> 00:37:18,099
idea of this campaign is to reform

859
00:37:24,299 --> 00:37:20,799
English libel laws to put it into

860
00:37:27,150 --> 00:37:24,309
context a libel case in England costs a

861
00:37:30,059 --> 00:37:27,160
hundred and forty times more than the

862
00:37:31,890 --> 00:37:30,069
European average yeah there's something

863
00:37:33,870 --> 00:37:31,900
fundamentally wrong with our system when

864
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:33,880
it's so expensive and there's something

865
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:35,530
fundamentally wrong when that vast

866
00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:38,710
expense terrifies journalist from

867
00:37:42,990 --> 00:37:39,910
writing what they really ought to be

868
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:43,000
writing about so that campaign I think

869
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:44,650
never about fourteen thousand signatures

870
00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:48,730
and as well as massive support from the

871
00:37:53,730 --> 00:37:52,030
public we've got people like Stephen Fry

872
00:37:57,450 --> 00:37:53,740
who I know you were talking to recently

873
00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:57,460
Tim Minchin you know the performers and

874
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:59,440
writers who care about skepticism and

875
00:38:04,260 --> 00:38:01,599
rationalism scientists like Richard

876
00:38:08,849 --> 00:38:04,270
Dawkins and Sir Martin Rees the

877
00:38:11,339 --> 00:38:08,859
astronomer royal the poet laureate has

878
00:38:12,510 --> 00:38:11,349
signed up all sorts of people who either

879
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:12,520
care about science

880
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:15,610
or free speech or journalism they're all

881
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:18,370
back in the case and if if listeners can

882
00:38:22,970 --> 00:38:19,930
also sign up to the petition I'll be

883
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:22,980
fantastic it's a sense about science org

884
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:25,690
sense about science not old and the

885
00:38:29,310 --> 00:38:27,250
reason why the team to get overseas

886
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:29,320
support and why so many overseas people

887
00:38:37,770 --> 00:38:33,490
are signing up is because potentially

888
00:38:39,810 --> 00:38:37,780
somebody outside of England can end up

889
00:38:41,340 --> 00:38:39,820
in an English law court had not just

890
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:41,350
potentially and it does happen it's

891
00:38:48,990 --> 00:38:44,890
called libel tourism if if somebody

892
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:49,000
wants to confront a journalist the best

893
00:38:52,350 --> 00:38:50,410
thing they can do is bring them to

894
00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:52,360
English law court because the expenses

895
00:38:57,630 --> 00:38:55,180
are so great the chances are that the

896
00:38:59,700 --> 00:38:57,640
journalist will have to back down so our

897
00:39:01,050 --> 00:38:59,710
Lord in England are getting other people

898
00:39:03,110 --> 00:39:01,060
into trouble and that's one of the

899
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:03,120
reasons also why we want to change it I

900
00:39:07,470 --> 00:39:05,260
think it's also really important to

901
00:39:10,470 --> 00:39:07,480
emphasize Simon and I've had some people

902
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:10,480
comment about this to me that this is

903
00:39:15,390 --> 00:39:12,490
not just about keeping libel laws out of

904
00:39:17,190 --> 00:39:15,400
science this is about reforming the

905
00:39:18,990 --> 00:39:17,200
library laws across the board and it's

906
00:39:21,590 --> 00:39:19,000
much more about free speech isn't it

907
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:21,600
because some people have said to me well

908
00:39:26,490 --> 00:39:24,400
we shouldn't be an exceptional special

909
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:26,500
group that's almost like a special

910
00:39:29,940 --> 00:39:28,450
pleading in a sense saying don't put

911
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:29,950
those laws on us it's not just about

912
00:39:36,050 --> 00:39:32,050
science writers it's about journalism as

913
00:39:38,670 --> 00:39:36,060
I'm yes you're absolutely right it's um

914
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:38,680
it's about bloggers it's like people

915
00:39:42,180 --> 00:39:40,450
that buy about politics about people

916
00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:42,190
that want about anything I think sent

917
00:39:46,490 --> 00:39:44,350
about science a keen on the science

918
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:46,500
angle because there is a scientific

919
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:50,530
charity and also there's sort of been a

920
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:53,410
fashion recently for science being taken

921
00:39:57,780 --> 00:39:56,170
to the court there's a cardiologist in

922
00:40:00,510 --> 00:39:57,790
England at the moment called Peter

923
00:40:02,730 --> 00:40:00,520
wilmshurst he's being sued for libel Ben

924
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:02,740
Goldacre was sued for libel last year

925
00:40:10,830 --> 00:40:05,010
when he wrote about a vitamin salesman

926
00:40:13,110 --> 00:40:10,840
so scientists or the topical and it's a

927
00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:13,120
good subject because the issues were

928
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:15,520
writing about oblique interest about

929
00:40:22,470 --> 00:40:19,030
child health and about issues that

930
00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:22,480
affect the public health issues so it's

931
00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:24,400
not like gossip it's not about politics

932
00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:26,350
so it's a good

933
00:40:32,820 --> 00:40:28,990
ample which hopefully may lead to a

934
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:32,830
change in the law but if not the only

935
00:40:37,860 --> 00:40:34,930
example an edgy set goes beyond science

936
00:40:39,150 --> 00:40:37,870
and it affects journalist whatever they

937
00:40:42,350 --> 00:40:39,160
write about and as I said earlier

938
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:42,360
wherever they like about it absolutely

939
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:44,770
well Simon we're very much looking

940
00:40:49,740 --> 00:40:47,530
forward to having you in Australia as a

941
00:40:51,870 --> 00:40:49,750
guest of the Adelaide Festival of ideas

942
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:51,880
now you're doing a lecture in Adelaide

943
00:40:56,730 --> 00:40:54,730
on the twelfth of July and then you'll

944
00:40:59,660 --> 00:40:56,740
be popping over to Sydney to give a

945
00:41:02,760 --> 00:40:59,670
special lecture on the fifteenth of July

946
00:41:04,050 --> 00:41:02,770
and lists can yeah I'm good on the other

947
00:41:05,550 --> 00:41:04,060
laughing I'm giving about Josh laughing

948
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:05,560
I'm taking part in three different

949
00:41:11,970 --> 00:41:10,090
panels I think my precious is the panel

950
00:41:13,860 --> 00:41:11,980
sessions are very much sort of

951
00:41:16,050 --> 00:41:13,870
brainstorming of ideas so we'll be

952
00:41:19,740 --> 00:41:16,060
looking at evolution in a general sense

953
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:19,750
so where the big ideas come from we'll

954
00:41:24,870 --> 00:41:22,570
be looking at of drugs and

955
00:41:26,310 --> 00:41:24,880
pharmaceuticals in one session and then

956
00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:26,320
I'll be delivering one leg from

957
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:28,270
particular on alternative medicine and

958
00:41:31,770 --> 00:41:30,370
trickle treatment and then I becoming

959
00:41:33,690 --> 00:41:31,780
over Sydney which would be great fun

960
00:41:36,450 --> 00:41:33,700
make Sydney for 45 years now and really

961
00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:36,460
before coming back and be talking about

962
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:39,250
alternative medicine and skepticism

963
00:41:43,350 --> 00:41:41,290
again when i get to sydney well

964
00:41:44,940 --> 00:41:43,360
fantastic well thank you very much for

965
00:41:46,350 --> 00:41:44,950
your time today Simon and we look very

966
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:46,360
much forward to seeing you in a couple

967
00:41:54,750 --> 00:41:49,330
of weeks in Australia I'm looking 42

968
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:54,760
I'll see you soon take care this is

969
00:42:00,390 --> 00:41:57,850
brian dunning from sceptile calm skep

970
00:42:02,460 --> 00:42:00,400
tide is a short weekly podcast taking a

971
00:42:05,550 --> 00:42:02,470
critical look at the pseudo-sciences

972
00:42:07,650 --> 00:42:05,560
that infect popular culture whenever I'm

973
00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:07,660
not locked in the recording studio I'm

974
00:42:22,430 --> 00:42:20,000
yellow that welcome to the token skeptic

975
00:42:24,620 --> 00:42:22,440
book review with our first book 59

976
00:42:26,809 --> 00:42:24,630
seconds think a little change a lot

977
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:26,819
you'll be able to see the video of this

978
00:42:34,579 --> 00:42:30,960
review next week featured at WWE talkin

979
00:42:35,990 --> 00:42:34,589
skeptic org professor richard wiseman is

980
00:42:38,390 --> 00:42:36,000
based at the University of Hartford

981
00:42:40,490 --> 00:42:38,400
share in the UK and has gained an

982
00:42:42,370 --> 00:42:40,500
international reputation for research

983
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:42,380
into quirky areas of psychology

984
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:45,450
including deception humor luck and the

985
00:42:52,010 --> 00:42:49,530
paranormal the book 59 seconds think a

986
00:42:54,319 --> 00:42:52,020
little change a lot is very appealing

987
00:42:57,890 --> 00:42:54,329
it's only sold in the UK at the moment

988
00:43:00,440 --> 00:42:57,900
for about 12 pounds I got mine 47 pounds

989
00:43:03,260 --> 00:43:00,450
by an online site which worked out at

990
00:43:05,299 --> 00:43:03,270
around about 14 Australian dollars mine

991
00:43:08,359 --> 00:43:05,309
even arrived without a hidden tarantula

992
00:43:11,539 --> 00:43:08,369
in terms of appearance it weighs in at a

993
00:43:13,579 --> 00:43:11,549
solid 358 pages including the detailed

994
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:13,589
footnotes at the end as a bright

995
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:15,569
appealing cover and is not that

996
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:17,130
dissimilar in construction to his

997
00:43:22,700 --> 00:43:19,530
earlier work quirkology the curious

998
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,710
science of everyday lives peel back that

999
00:43:26,660 --> 00:43:24,720
bright cover and you'll discover that 59

1000
00:43:29,329 --> 00:43:26,670
seconds has even more in common with

1001
00:43:31,339 --> 00:43:29,339
quirkology dr. Wiseman has become rather

1002
00:43:33,470 --> 00:43:31,349
good at putting as much information as

1003
00:43:35,660 --> 00:43:33,480
he possibly can into these two recent

1004
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:35,670
books whenever I've talked about his

1005
00:43:39,380 --> 00:43:37,530
research to others I usually just

1006
00:43:41,150 --> 00:43:39,390
recommend quirkology rather than

1007
00:43:43,490 --> 00:43:41,160
tracking down every paper is authored

1008
00:43:45,890 --> 00:43:43,500
from psychology of deception to power

1009
00:43:49,130 --> 00:43:45,900
psychology to personality and luck and

1010
00:43:50,510 --> 00:43:49,140
so forth now I originally thought that

1011
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:50,520
this was going to be more like two of

1012
00:43:55,849 --> 00:43:52,710
his earlier works which funnily enough

1013
00:43:57,559 --> 00:43:55,859
are self-help books since this is a book

1014
00:44:00,289 --> 00:43:57,569
that challenges many of the claims of

1015
00:44:02,150 --> 00:44:00,299
the self-help genre I guess the best way

1016
00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:02,160
to beat the fruits is to join them and

1017
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:05,760
be tastier and more nutritious there's

1018
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:07,770
the luck factor which investigated how

1019
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:10,170
good and bad luck result from measurable

1020
00:44:14,690 --> 00:44:12,450
habits for example lucky people by

1021
00:44:16,460 --> 00:44:14,700
expecting good luck might expend more

1022
00:44:18,740 --> 00:44:16,470
efforts in their endeavors resulting in

1023
00:44:21,530 --> 00:44:18,750
more success reinforcing their belief in

1024
00:44:23,420 --> 00:44:21,540
good luck there is also did you spot the

1025
00:44:25,609 --> 00:44:23,430
gorilla how to recognize hidden

1026
00:44:27,710 --> 00:44:25,619
opportunities in your life which applies

1027
00:44:29,569 --> 00:44:27,720
the metaphor for those priceless ideas

1028
00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:29,579
and opportunities which seem obvious in

1029
00:44:32,660 --> 00:44:29,910
hind

1030
00:44:34,849 --> 00:44:32,670
side to one's business life and home

1031
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:34,859
it's the structure of the book which

1032
00:44:39,289 --> 00:44:37,530
might throw you now this isn't the luck

1033
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:39,299
factor or did you spot the griller

1034
00:44:43,460 --> 00:44:41,730
whilst every research discussion goes

1035
00:44:46,549 --> 00:44:43,470
for no more than five to six pages

1036
00:44:48,770 --> 00:44:46,559
there's a 59 seconds or less tip which

1037
00:44:51,289 --> 00:44:48,780
features nearly every ten pages also

1038
00:44:53,359 --> 00:44:51,299
that's mixed in with some quizzes some

1039
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:53,369
charts to fill in a few four times

1040
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:55,650
fifteen second tips and text boxes and

1041
00:45:00,500 --> 00:44:57,920
it's all neatly divided into chapters

1042
00:45:02,450 --> 00:45:00,510
it's a very practical book that you

1043
00:45:04,819 --> 00:45:02,460
encouraged to write in much like is

1044
00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:04,829
earlier to self-help books but it's a

1045
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:07,140
lot thicker I guess the format of a

1046
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:09,510
self-help book is one I associated with

1047
00:45:13,730 --> 00:45:11,730
a less solid nonfiction research book

1048
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:13,740
appearance but you certainly can't say

1049
00:45:16,370 --> 00:45:14,910
that you're not getting your money's

1050
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:16,380
worth with how much research and

1051
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:18,510
activities which are stacked in bunches

1052
00:45:22,730 --> 00:45:21,450
throughout of course being the professor

1053
00:45:25,220 --> 00:45:22,740
of the public understanding of

1054
00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:25,230
psychology in the UK he has a lot of

1055
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:27,510
opportunities to conduct tests and trial

1056
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:29,510
them many of these appear in the book

1057
00:45:34,130 --> 00:45:32,130
romance made simple in chapter 7

1058
00:45:36,650 --> 00:45:34,140
relationships drew upon the research

1059
00:45:38,839 --> 00:45:36,660
done on his quirkology website a large

1060
00:45:41,870 --> 00:45:38,849
scale online survey that examined the

1061
00:45:45,049 --> 00:45:41,880
psychology of romantic gestures another

1062
00:45:47,359 --> 00:45:45,059
in chapter 2 persuasion tested how much

1063
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:47,369
money people donate to a perfect charity

1064
00:45:52,069 --> 00:45:49,200
box which was done in conjunction with

1065
00:45:53,870 --> 00:45:52,079
borders book stores across the UK dr.

1066
00:45:56,569 --> 00:45:53,880
Wiseman regularly pops out new quizzes

1067
00:45:58,519 --> 00:45:56,579
activities and studies online I wouldn't

1068
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:58,529
be surprised if many listeners have also

1069
00:46:03,079 --> 00:46:00,720
enjoyed his kind of supernatural version

1070
00:46:05,660 --> 00:46:03,089
of the children's game wheres wally or

1071
00:46:08,150 --> 00:46:05,670
where's Richard which was played last

1072
00:46:09,859 --> 00:46:08,160
month by a Twitter and on his blog to

1073
00:46:12,829 --> 00:46:09,869
try at the psychic abilities of his

1074
00:46:14,690 --> 00:46:12,839
readers when reading 59 seconds I quite

1075
00:46:16,069 --> 00:46:14,700
enjoy discovering how many little tips

1076
00:46:18,260 --> 00:46:16,079
for happiness or encouraging

1077
00:46:20,089 --> 00:46:18,270
socialization have been recognized by

1078
00:46:22,730 --> 00:46:20,099
myself or others in casual discussion

1079
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:22,740
and are either agreed or disagreed upon

1080
00:46:28,670 --> 00:46:25,710
by scientific research for example

1081
00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:28,680
episode 115 of the geologic podcast

1082
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:30,630
talked about how socialising whilst

1083
00:46:36,019 --> 00:46:33,690
walking a dog seems so much easier there

1084
00:46:38,529 --> 00:46:36,029
in chapter 6 on stress with a heading

1085
00:46:41,059 --> 00:46:38,539
pause for thought research shows that

1086
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:41,069
most researchers acknowledge that when

1087
00:46:43,970 --> 00:46:42,960
the most important factors centers on

1088
00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:43,980
the social benefit

1089
00:46:48,830 --> 00:46:46,740
of owning a dog a large body of research

1090
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:48,840
has demonstrated that spending time with

1091
00:46:52,099 --> 00:46:50,400
other people is a major source of

1092
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:52,109
happiness and health and dogs

1093
00:46:56,090 --> 00:46:54,090
inadvertent of an effective ability to

1094
00:46:58,130 --> 00:46:56,100
bring people together is likely to play

1095
00:47:00,680 --> 00:46:58,140
a major role in promoting the well-being

1096
00:47:02,950 --> 00:47:00,690
of their owners however some of the

1097
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:02,960
comments did seem a little dubious in

1098
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:06,690
chapter 9 parenting one of the in 59

1099
00:47:10,970 --> 00:47:08,880
seconds or less summaries claimed that

1100
00:47:12,380 --> 00:47:10,980
research shows that people with surnames

1101
00:47:14,150 --> 00:47:12,390
beginning with the letter towards the

1102
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:14,160
start of the alphabet are more

1103
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:16,710
successful life and traditional names

1104
00:47:20,810 --> 00:47:19,050
with royal associations are seen as

1105
00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:20,820
particularly successful and intelligent

1106
00:47:25,849 --> 00:47:23,250
well I wondered if that was also true

1107
00:47:28,340 --> 00:47:25,859
across cultures some of the research is

1108
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:28,350
still being done a study in chapter 10

1109
00:47:34,370 --> 00:47:31,650
on personality looked at the 2d 24 D

1110
00:47:36,980 --> 00:47:34,380
ratio of fingers or the casanova effect

1111
00:47:39,770 --> 00:47:36,990
which was conducted by long distance for

1112
00:47:42,650 --> 00:47:39,780
dr. Wiseman using psych ops Jim under

1113
00:47:45,710 --> 00:47:42,660
down on 37 of the best-known leading men

1114
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:45,720
and 9 comedians if the phenomenon is

1115
00:47:51,140 --> 00:47:47,970
genuine it might be able to tell us more

1116
00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:51,150
about the magic x factor or XY factor of

1117
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:53,730
masculine to feminine psychological and

1118
00:47:58,220 --> 00:47:56,310
physical abilities finally those of you

1119
00:48:01,030 --> 00:47:58,230
who follow richard wiseman on Twitter or

1120
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:01,040
check out his new site for the book at

1121
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:04,800
wwt nine seconds BDS will know that

1122
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:05,970
there's additional features that

1123
00:48:11,150 --> 00:48:08,730
complement the book there's the 59

1124
00:48:13,849 --> 00:48:11,160
seconds tips which so far include the

1125
00:48:16,430 --> 00:48:13,859
power of purchases and glasses and

1126
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:16,440
mirrors one on how buying experiences is

1127
00:48:19,970 --> 00:48:17,970
better for once happiness than buying

1128
00:48:22,190 --> 00:48:19,980
goods and the influence that tall

1129
00:48:24,410 --> 00:48:22,200
glasses and a mirror in the kitchen can

1130
00:48:26,510 --> 00:48:24,420
have on a diet it's a very clever

1131
00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:26,520
advertisement for the book as it for

1132
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:28,640
grants the useful advice and as expected

1133
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:31,170
makes clear just how much research went

1134
00:48:36,620 --> 00:48:34,250
into each of the 59 seconds or less tips

1135
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:36,630
don't forget that you can see the video

1136
00:48:43,849 --> 00:48:38,850
version of this book of you at my new

1137
00:48:46,970 --> 00:48:43,859
site wwn skeptic org starting from next

1138
00:48:48,830 --> 00:48:46,980
week oh and if dr. Richard Wiseman is

1139
00:48:50,450 --> 00:48:48,840
listening to this podcast to hear one of

1140
00:48:53,390 --> 00:48:50,460
the very first reviews of his book

1141
00:48:57,300 --> 00:48:53,400
online he might let you know via his

1142
00:49:01,830 --> 00:48:57,310
website at WWF teen seconds be

1143
00:49:04,770 --> 00:49:01,840
or on his personal blog at WWE and

1144
00:49:06,870 --> 00:49:04,780
wordpress com you might comment how many

1145
00:49:27,980 --> 00:49:06,880
times he heard me make an allusion to it

1146
00:49:39,180 --> 00:49:30,769
let's all take this with a grain of salt

1147
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:39,190
seas around ticket hello this is around

1148
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:42,210
segev taking life with a grain of salt

1149
00:49:46,829 --> 00:49:44,650
anybody who actively supports a sports

1150
00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:46,839
club that knows the feeling the team on

1151
00:49:50,819 --> 00:49:49,089
the field unites the supporters often

1152
00:49:53,249 --> 00:49:50,829
dressed in apparel that identifies them

1153
00:49:55,799 --> 00:49:53,259
with a team when the team scores a goal

1154
00:49:57,150 --> 00:49:55,809
or a try or a six complete strangers

1155
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:57,160
will hug and give each other high-fives

1156
00:50:01,620 --> 00:49:59,440
as if they've known each other since

1157
00:50:03,690 --> 00:50:01,630
kindergarten at the end of the game

1158
00:50:05,370 --> 00:50:03,700
should support his encounter supporters

1159
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:05,380
of the other team that will together

1160
00:50:10,620 --> 00:50:07,599
mock them or engage in friendly or not

1161
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:10,630
so friendly banter in some cases they

1162
00:50:14,579 --> 00:50:12,970
might engage in physical fighting no

1163
00:50:16,579 --> 00:50:14,589
doubt with the aim of convincing the

1164
00:50:19,140 --> 00:50:16,589
other fans to change their allegiance

1165
00:50:21,539 --> 00:50:19,150
this kind of identification with a group

1166
00:50:23,249 --> 00:50:21,549
is not limited to sports of course it

1167
00:50:25,529 --> 00:50:23,259
can be seen in the pride that people

1168
00:50:27,630 --> 00:50:25,539
feel about their country waving flags or

1169
00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:27,640
national days and often proclaiming

1170
00:50:32,759 --> 00:50:29,380
there's to be the best country in the

1171
00:50:34,170 --> 00:50:32,769
world this is the time to pause and say

1172
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:34,180
that Australia really is the best

1173
00:50:40,519 --> 00:50:36,249
country in the world into the rest of

1174
00:50:46,349 --> 00:50:43,890
examples of group loyalty abound in most

1175
00:50:49,470 --> 00:50:46,359
cases people see loyalty to a group as a

1176
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:49,480
positive a virtue more importantly what

1177
00:50:54,059 --> 00:50:51,970
is seen as disloyalty to a group is

1178
00:50:57,720 --> 00:50:54,069
frowned upon and often punished in

1179
00:50:59,220 --> 00:50:57,730
various ways the examples of sports in

1180
00:51:01,589 --> 00:50:59,230
national background do not usually

1181
00:51:03,359 --> 00:51:01,599
involve a moral judgment but there are

1182
00:51:05,370 --> 00:51:03,369
many groups that require their members

1183
00:51:08,039 --> 00:51:05,380
whether official or unofficial to share

1184
00:51:11,009 --> 00:51:08,049
some values or ideas the most obvious

1185
00:51:12,509 --> 00:51:11,019
such group is a political party as a

1186
00:51:15,479 --> 00:51:12,519
political parties supposed to represent

1187
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:15,489
ideology the expectation might be that

1188
00:51:20,220 --> 00:51:17,680
as a party's ideology inevitably changes

1189
00:51:22,950 --> 00:51:20,230
over time so will voters and members

1190
00:51:25,529 --> 00:51:22,960
change their allegiance however that is

1191
00:51:27,809 --> 00:51:25,539
rarely the case voting patterns in

1192
00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:27,819
Australia show quite clearly that most

1193
00:51:31,950 --> 00:51:28,960
people vote for the

1194
00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:31,960
party in every election it would be fair

1195
00:51:36,060 --> 00:51:33,790
to assume that they are loyal to the

1196
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:36,070
party rather than agree with all these

1197
00:51:41,460 --> 00:51:39,310
policies in the US where most people are

1198
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:41,470
registered members of a party there is

1199
00:51:45,089 --> 00:51:43,330
very little change in party membership

1200
00:51:47,010 --> 00:51:45,099
though it is not clear what level of

1201
00:51:50,010 --> 00:51:47,020
adherence there is to party membership

1202
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:50,020
on election days it is fairly easy to

1203
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:51,730
guess how evolution would have made

1204
00:51:56,730 --> 00:51:54,490
humans prone to group loyalty since

1205
00:51:58,680 --> 00:51:56,740
humans are social animals being able to

1206
00:52:01,130 --> 00:51:58,690
rely on support from others members of

1207
00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:01,140
the group is paramount to survival as

1208
00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:04,240
humans evolved he would be surprising if

1209
00:52:08,579 --> 00:52:05,710
they hadn't evolved a freeloader

1210
00:52:11,220 --> 00:52:08,589
detection mechanism suckers spend a lot

1211
00:52:13,020 --> 00:52:11,230
of energy on lost causes so some level

1212
00:52:15,599 --> 00:52:13,030
of sucker proofing would have been an

1213
00:52:17,609 --> 00:52:15,609
important development with suckers being

1214
00:52:19,530 --> 00:52:17,619
less common reciprocity would have

1215
00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:19,540
become a major factor in who gets the

1216
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:21,280
support of the group and who doesn't and

1217
00:52:25,859 --> 00:52:24,640
group loyalty would have been born of

1218
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:25,869
course this is a simplistic

1219
00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:27,760
representation of both evolution and

1220
00:52:31,740 --> 00:52:29,710
group loyalty but he does provide a

1221
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:31,750
broad brush view of how the tendency

1222
00:52:36,930 --> 00:52:33,250
could have become part of what it means

1223
00:52:40,020 --> 00:52:36,940
to be human in his book blindness author

1224
00:52:41,849 --> 00:52:40,030
Josie saramago describes a situation in

1225
00:52:44,820 --> 00:52:41,859
which people find themselves in separate

1226
00:52:46,980 --> 00:52:44,830
rooms in an isolated hospital and as

1227
00:52:49,079 --> 00:52:46,990
resources become scarce the different

1228
00:52:50,250 --> 00:52:49,089
rooms become separate groups that fight

1229
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:50,260
each other in a manner that is

1230
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:53,170
astonishingly brutal in the context of

1231
00:52:58,170 --> 00:52:55,330
fighting for survival that does not seem

1232
00:52:59,820 --> 00:52:58,180
so incredible but Saramago splott puts

1233
00:53:02,370 --> 00:52:59,830
the characters in different rooms in a

1234
00:53:04,650 --> 00:53:02,380
completely arbitrary manner as all those

1235
00:53:07,620 --> 00:53:04,660
people are blind and they scramble into

1236
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:07,630
rooms without any thought or plan many

1237
00:53:11,790 --> 00:53:09,970
people I know who read the book thought

1238
00:53:13,950 --> 00:53:11,800
that despite the obviously fictitious

1239
00:53:16,140 --> 00:53:13,960
plot the element of loyalty to an

1240
00:53:19,620 --> 00:53:16,150
arbitrarily formed group was completely

1241
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:19,630
realistic while blindness is just a

1242
00:53:24,180 --> 00:53:21,730
novel the behavior of people living

1243
00:53:26,099 --> 00:53:24,190
under authoritarian regimes has shown

1244
00:53:27,599 --> 00:53:26,109
that in the face of pressure to behave

1245
00:53:31,230 --> 00:53:27,609
as the rest of the group expect one to

1246
00:53:33,089 --> 00:53:31,240
most people would comply while it may be

1247
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:33,099
possible to justify a blind group

1248
00:53:37,230 --> 00:53:34,930
loyalty under the Nazi regime for

1249
00:53:39,450 --> 00:53:37,240
example as being the result of fear of

1250
00:53:40,710 --> 00:53:39,460
retribution the same cannot be said of

1251
00:53:42,270 --> 00:53:40,720
the students participate

1252
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:42,280
dating in the third way of teaching

1253
00:53:49,170 --> 00:53:45,250
experiment by ron jones in california in

1254
00:53:52,380 --> 00:53:49,180
1969 in that experiment later depicted

1255
00:53:54,750 --> 00:53:52,390
in the 1981 movie the wave students were

1256
00:53:56,310 --> 00:53:54,760
arbitrarily split into groups with one

1257
00:53:58,380 --> 00:53:56,320
group being put in charge of the other

1258
00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:58,390
and given free reign to do whatever they

1259
00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:00,880
wanted to members of the other group the

1260
00:54:04,980 --> 00:54:03,040
patterns of behavior were disturbing as

1261
00:54:07,650 --> 00:54:04,990
the dominant group mistreated the other

1262
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:07,660
group in an extraordinary way but

1263
00:54:11,100 --> 00:54:09,250
another obvious development was that

1264
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:11,110
both groups quickly became cohesive and

1265
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:13,210
developed some internal structures that

1266
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:14,890
were unique to each a group and helped

1267
00:54:19,620 --> 00:54:17,890
it create a group identity listeners

1268
00:54:21,540 --> 00:54:19,630
might be intrigued as to what the

1269
00:54:23,580 --> 00:54:21,550
skeptical angle might be for looking at

1270
00:54:26,190 --> 00:54:23,590
screw loyalty since it is evidently a

1271
00:54:28,050 --> 00:54:26,200
natural behavior my answer would start

1272
00:54:30,450 --> 00:54:28,060
by saying that there are good reasons to

1273
00:54:32,580 --> 00:54:30,460
suspect that believing claims made by

1274
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:32,590
figures of personal authority to be true

1275
00:54:37,830 --> 00:54:35,490
regardless of evidence is also natural

1276
00:54:39,660 --> 00:54:37,840
there are good potential evolutionary

1277
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:39,670
explanations for belief in general and

1278
00:54:44,190 --> 00:54:41,890
faith in particular and Richard Dawkins

1279
00:54:47,340 --> 00:54:44,200
claims that religion is a side effect of

1280
00:54:49,890 --> 00:54:47,350
this evolved trade despite faith being

1281
00:54:52,260 --> 00:54:49,900
almost universal and probably natural we

1282
00:54:54,660 --> 00:54:52,270
skeptics do not accept it we strive to

1283
00:54:56,550 --> 00:54:54,670
change the way people think hoping to

1284
00:54:59,100 --> 00:54:56,560
instill critical thinking in as much of

1285
00:55:00,840 --> 00:54:59,110
society as possible even though most of

1286
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:00,850
us would recognize that we can only make

1287
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:03,520
small steps in that direction in the

1288
00:55:07,710 --> 00:55:05,710
same way the fact that group loyalty is

1289
00:55:09,660 --> 00:55:07,720
natural behavior does not mean that it

1290
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:09,670
is good or even acceptable to an

1291
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:13,330
inquiring mind in his 1998 article a

1292
00:55:19,110 --> 00:55:15,970
critique of group loyalty philosopher

1293
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:19,120
Laura Calhoun writes in spite of the

1294
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:21,490
positive connotations of loyalty the

1295
00:55:25,980 --> 00:55:23,710
concept is itself morally neutral and

1296
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:25,990
remaining loyal to a group whose values

1297
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:28,050
one does not share is irrational I

1298
00:55:33,420 --> 00:55:31,930
couldn't agree more moreover I suggest

1299
00:55:35,610 --> 00:55:33,430
that as skeptics we should be very

1300
00:55:37,290 --> 00:55:35,620
suspicious of group behavior or any

1301
00:55:39,450 --> 00:55:37,300
signs that people behave or make

1302
00:55:40,830 --> 00:55:39,460
decisions based on what they're supposed

1303
00:55:43,950 --> 00:55:40,840
to because of their group belonging

1304
00:55:45,810 --> 00:55:43,960
because of loyalty to their group the

1305
00:55:48,270 --> 00:55:45,820
most obvious cases are as mentioned

1306
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:48,280
earlier in politics but we should also

1307
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:49,930
be very cautious not to play the game

1308
00:55:53,870 --> 00:55:52,810
ourselves skeptical groups are important

1309
00:55:55,370 --> 00:55:53,880
to many of us

1310
00:55:56,780 --> 00:55:55,380
and I'm not suggesting we harm such

1311
00:55:58,840 --> 00:55:56,790
groups in order to show we do not

1312
00:56:01,340 --> 00:55:58,850
participate in the group loyalty game

1313
00:56:03,110 --> 00:56:01,350
but if the group we belong to or The

1314
00:56:05,180 --> 00:56:03,120
Skeptical movement in general is doing

1315
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:05,190
something we do not agree with it is our

1316
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:07,170
duty to follow our own logic and

1317
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:19,190
join us now for drinking skeptically in

1318
00:56:32,210 --> 00:56:26,610
the think tank well cheers everybody

1319
00:56:34,820 --> 00:56:32,220
once again in the think tank glasses are

1320
00:56:36,860 --> 00:56:34,830
flying everywhere here we are in our

1321
00:56:38,270 --> 00:56:36,870
favorite Club once again just waiting

1322
00:56:39,770 --> 00:56:38,280
for the bus announcements because I know

1323
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:39,780
that our listeners just love to hear the

1324
00:56:43,940 --> 00:56:41,010
pass announcements when we're here doing

1325
00:56:46,990 --> 00:56:43,950
the thing tank and also before we start

1326
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:47,000
is a new feature new healing method

1327
00:56:52,580 --> 00:56:50,490
suggested to us by Darren who shouted us

1328
00:56:54,890 --> 00:56:52,590
the drinks last time yes he has

1329
00:56:56,210 --> 00:56:54,900
suggested that if listeners want to send

1330
00:56:57,590 --> 00:56:56,220
us a little bit of money to cover a

1331
00:57:00,740 --> 00:56:57,600
round of drinks we could send them

1332
00:57:04,310 --> 00:57:00,750
remote healing you see we would drink to

1333
00:57:06,340 --> 00:57:04,320
their health all right and we're not

1334
00:57:10,130 --> 00:57:06,350
sure what to call it may be toast ology

1335
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:10,140
solid or something like that so if you

1336
00:57:17,420 --> 00:57:14,160
send us via the paypal button on our www

1337
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:17,430
60 votes toasting Don TV remote toasting

1338
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:20,010
and say this is for a round of drinks

1339
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:22,530
for the think tank we will toast your

1340
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:24,480
health your good luck or anything else

1341
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:26,160
you'd like us to toast joining me

1342
00:57:30,530 --> 00:57:27,810
tonight in the think tank in our

1343
00:57:33,290 --> 00:57:30,540
favorite club is dr. Richie hi Richard I

1344
00:57:37,460 --> 00:57:33,300
Dr Ng young I'm still getting over this

1345
00:57:39,170 --> 00:57:37,470
Richard um fluey coldy thingy I had to

1346
00:57:40,790 --> 00:57:39,180
get over it before next week i do i'm

1347
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:40,800
flying out the town next week i should

1348
00:57:49,700 --> 00:57:44,970
get over by them hello Diane well i'm

1349
00:57:52,490 --> 00:57:49,710
still getting awesome we have new son

1350
00:57:54,140 --> 00:57:52,500
member john benim oh hello Joe I know

1351
00:57:56,210 --> 00:57:54,150
it's good to see you thank you for

1352
00:57:58,670 --> 00:57:56,220
coming along all the way across town of

1353
00:58:00,170 --> 00:57:58,680
course yes I too have been spending most

1354
00:58:01,670 --> 00:58:00,180
of the week recovering as anyone

1355
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:01,680
listening to my twitter feed will know

1356
00:58:06,980 --> 00:58:03,930
and what's your twitter name it's joe

1357
00:58:10,790 --> 00:58:06,990
been hmoo state jo ven

1358
00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:10,800
hjm you good heavens I like to make

1359
00:58:15,740 --> 00:58:13,110
things complicated also joining us

1360
00:58:18,830 --> 00:58:15,750
tonight is Iran Sega from ah the famous

1361
00:58:21,830 --> 00:58:18,840
a grain of salt pirated hiya Ron and

1362
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:21,840
zone member amanda rose hi Amanda hello

1363
00:58:27,470 --> 00:58:25,050
now Amanda Iran and I will all be going

1364
00:58:30,020 --> 00:58:27,480
to town next week me and you must be

1365
00:58:33,820 --> 00:58:30,030
well by then because otherwise you'll

1366
00:58:38,870 --> 00:58:33,830
have to find alternative accommodation

1367
00:58:40,490 --> 00:58:38,880
I'm not sharing a room alright well I

1368
00:58:42,109 --> 00:58:40,500
just knock the microphone I'm so excited

1369
00:58:44,090 --> 00:58:42,119
to go to town I'll see what I can do

1370
00:58:45,830 --> 00:58:44,100
until then now a quick few snippets

1371
00:58:48,530 --> 00:58:45,840
before we get into the more interesting

1372
00:58:50,180 --> 00:58:48,540
things listen to Peter writes to me and

1373
00:58:52,780 --> 00:58:50,190
says are you aware that there was a

1374
00:58:56,750 --> 00:58:52,790
fellow by the name of Richard Saunders

1375
00:59:01,400 --> 00:58:56,760
1613 to 1692 who was a famous astrologer

1376
00:59:03,350 --> 00:59:01,410
and mole mappa mole mapper you see you

1377
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:03,360
same ol Murph imagine what do you mean

1378
00:59:09,230 --> 00:59:06,810
would you care to extrapolate remove

1379
00:59:11,650 --> 00:59:09,240
your shirt and you map the moles on your

1380
00:59:14,359 --> 00:59:11,660
skin and what do you deduce from that

1381
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:14,369
heaven mam'selle enough so you marry me

1382
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:16,050
to the Stars or something like can I

1383
00:59:21,140 --> 00:59:18,450
don't dance yeah cannot maybe that's

1384
00:59:23,630 --> 00:59:21,150
what so there we are actually you know

1385
00:59:25,870 --> 00:59:23,640
this makes them exactly as much sense as

1386
00:59:28,190 --> 00:59:25,880
iridology Zoomer haps it's just a

1387
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:28,200
phrenology possibly yeah feeling the

1388
00:59:31,820 --> 00:59:29,970
lumps on your head the holes me here

1389
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:31,830
just trying to see if possibly some

1390
00:59:39,380 --> 00:59:35,450
diagnostic now another listener modern

1391
00:59:42,890 --> 00:59:39,390
rights and asks a question maybe you dr.

1392
00:59:46,340 --> 00:59:42,900
AG could um could answer briefly us

1393
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:46,350
about pubmed pad grew up started again

1394
00:59:52,670 --> 00:59:50,160
asks about pubmed and Google Scholar

1395
00:59:54,590 --> 00:59:52,680
search engine are you familiar with that

1396
00:59:58,820 --> 00:59:54,600
can you give so Ellison is a quick

1397
01:00:02,620 --> 00:59:58,830
overview of them oh well pubmed is the

1398
01:00:04,790 --> 01:00:02,630
National Institute of Health list of

1399
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:04,800
biologicals articles that have been

1400
01:00:09,650 --> 01:00:06,090
published in the peer-reviewed

1401
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:09,660
literature and it mostly covers life

1402
01:00:14,450 --> 01:00:13,050
sciences so Joe knows about it too so

1403
01:00:15,650 --> 01:00:14,460
Joe and I use it all the time in our

1404
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:15,660
work if you want to search for

1405
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:17,850
information that's been peer review

1406
01:00:20,690 --> 01:00:19,920
published then you would usually go to

1407
01:00:24,849 --> 01:00:20,700
PubMed fur

1408
01:00:29,359 --> 01:00:24,859
and type in a topic or an author's name

1409
01:00:32,210 --> 01:00:29,369
and Google Scholar search also picks up

1410
01:00:33,740 --> 01:00:32,220
articles from PubMed from PubMed yes it

1411
01:00:37,790 --> 01:00:33,750
does so they're both good reliable

1412
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:37,800
sources you'd say well that's reliable

1413
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:40,770
as the information that you come up with

1414
01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:44,010
from them so yeah ne ne ne there there

1415
01:00:47,300 --> 01:00:45,359
much like any database there are

1416
01:00:49,849 --> 01:00:47,310
hundreds of databases out there that you

1417
01:00:53,450 --> 01:00:49,859
can access peer reviewed articles

1418
01:00:56,510 --> 01:00:53,460
whether it's some that's offered sanaa

1419
01:00:57,770 --> 01:00:56,520
medline and Google Google's one that's

1420
01:00:59,630 --> 01:00:57,780
probably the most accessible to people

1421
01:01:01,310 --> 01:00:59,640
because so many people use Google Earth

1422
01:01:03,349 --> 01:01:01,320
and it's easy for them to get to the

1423
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:03,359
problem with a lot of those some

1424
01:01:08,510 --> 01:01:06,240
databases though is that you can find an

1425
01:01:09,620 --> 01:01:08,520
article that you want but these days

1426
01:01:11,630 --> 01:01:09,630
most people tend to look for things

1427
01:01:13,069 --> 01:01:11,640
online primarily and a lot of the time

1428
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:13,079
to actually access the articles you

1429
01:01:17,660 --> 01:01:15,690
often need to be a paying member so

1430
01:01:19,819 --> 01:01:17,670
often you'd need to be you know if you

1431
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:19,829
work in hospital or some sort of medical

1432
01:01:24,500 --> 01:01:22,170
area you may get free access through

1433
01:01:26,089 --> 01:01:24,510
your institution but if you are just an

1434
01:01:27,140 --> 01:01:26,099
individual out there how much taxes the

1435
01:01:29,300 --> 01:01:27,150
articles are can be quite difficult

1436
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:29,310
unless you just pick yourself up and go

1437
01:01:32,690 --> 01:01:30,690
up to your library with your little

1438
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:32,700
reference and own actually find the

1439
01:01:37,579 --> 01:01:35,250
article in the library itself so okay

1440
01:01:39,410 --> 01:01:37,589
yeah but the alternative thing you can

1441
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:39,420
do to that Joe is you can twitter the

1442
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:41,280
article you want and you'll probably get

1443
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:43,530
it in about a minute and somebody across

1444
01:01:46,190 --> 01:01:45,119
the world who has access so this

1445
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:46,200
happened to you today didn't know

1446
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:47,970
yesterday no this happened to me well

1447
01:01:50,839 --> 01:01:49,290
actually did happen to me yesterday but

1448
01:01:52,790 --> 01:01:50,849
it happened to me a week and a half ago

1449
01:01:56,150 --> 01:01:52,800
as well when I was looking for the

1450
01:02:00,440 --> 01:01:56,160
Australian pharmacy journal article

1451
01:02:02,930 --> 01:02:00,450
about why homeopathy works and Scott

1452
01:02:05,420 --> 01:02:02,940
from Canada who writes the blog

1453
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:05,430
science-based pharmacy wrote to me and

1454
01:02:08,690 --> 01:02:06,690
said do you have the article and my

1455
01:02:11,420 --> 01:02:08,700
university subscribes to that particular

1456
01:02:14,270 --> 01:02:11,430
journal but they about two months behind

1457
01:02:17,420 --> 01:02:14,280
in getting up to date online the journal

1458
01:02:19,579 --> 01:02:17,430
so I twitted it and somebody sent it to

1459
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:19,589
me on email just really quick I mean

1460
01:02:24,140 --> 01:02:22,650
twitter is okay I mean I love to it well

1461
01:02:25,970 --> 01:02:24,150
a lot of people regarded as a waste of

1462
01:02:27,829 --> 01:02:25,980
time but for an information source if

1463
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:27,839
you need help or information on

1464
01:02:31,730 --> 01:02:29,250
something Twitter's fantastic now your

1465
01:02:33,940 --> 01:02:31,740
twitter name is dr. rachy it is yeah

1466
01:02:35,740 --> 01:02:33,950
yeah what would her name is Diane

1467
01:02:38,170 --> 01:02:35,750
the school Diane underscore we've heard

1468
01:02:41,109 --> 01:02:38,180
your twitter name around segev ever

1469
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:41,119
leave her answer yet and you are I'm

1470
01:02:45,550 --> 01:02:43,250
floppy at mule floppy-eared meal on

1471
01:02:46,930 --> 01:02:45,560
Twitter and I'm just skipping zones on

1472
01:02:48,310 --> 01:02:46,940
twitter is fantastic and I give a

1473
01:02:49,569 --> 01:02:48,320
shout-out Richard to the people that

1474
01:02:52,690 --> 01:02:49,579
helped me yesterday because I was

1475
01:02:55,420 --> 01:02:52,700
actually called up by journalists who is

1476
01:02:57,190 --> 01:02:55,430
looking to do a story on the BCA Simon

1477
01:02:59,650 --> 01:02:57,200
seen chiropractic which we'll get to it

1478
01:03:00,940 --> 01:02:59,660
we'll get to that a moment yet and the

1479
01:03:02,890 --> 01:03:00,950
journalist was after the original

1480
01:03:05,380 --> 01:03:02,900
guardian article that appeared in August

1481
01:03:08,589 --> 01:03:05,390
2008 which of course has now been pulled

1482
01:03:10,750 --> 01:03:08,599
and I've sent out a call on Twitter and

1483
01:03:12,130 --> 01:03:10,760
I think within about maybe a minute

1484
01:03:14,620 --> 01:03:12,140
which was at the time it took me to read

1485
01:03:18,190 --> 01:03:14,630
check and refresh I had about 12 people

1486
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:18,200
that had sent me links and or PDFs and

1487
01:03:22,270 --> 01:03:20,810
or emails so thanks very much to all

1488
01:03:23,740 --> 01:03:22,280
those people that did that because that

1489
01:03:25,030 --> 01:03:23,750
means that we can get it out to the

1490
01:03:26,950 --> 01:03:25,040
Australian media which is fantastic

1491
01:03:28,990 --> 01:03:26,960
there's very interesting things

1492
01:03:31,780 --> 01:03:29,000
happening there and a couple of other

1493
01:03:35,410 --> 01:03:31,790
quick items those people who listen to

1494
01:03:37,660 --> 01:03:35,420
the 365 days of astronomy podcast the

1495
01:03:39,700 --> 01:03:37,670
one that George her ab sings the theme

1496
01:03:45,370 --> 01:03:39,710
to and you talk about on Australian

1497
01:03:48,550 --> 01:03:45,380
television subtly one again yeah our

1498
01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:48,560
reporter Kylie Sturgis in fact as we're

1499
01:03:51,700 --> 01:03:50,510
recording on the first of the think

1500
01:03:54,849 --> 01:03:51,710
tanks being recorded on the first of

1501
01:03:57,309 --> 01:03:54,859
July and her episode is out today so you

1502
01:03:59,319 --> 01:03:57,319
can listen to Kylie Sturgis on the 365

1503
01:04:01,990 --> 01:03:59,329
days of astronomy podcast which also

1504
01:04:03,970 --> 01:04:02,000
reminds me dr. Richie and myself are

1505
01:04:07,599 --> 01:04:03,980
trying to organize ourselves to get over

1506
01:04:10,599 --> 01:04:07,609
to Perth we are in early August August

1507
01:04:13,150 --> 01:04:10,609
there ought to speak at the secular week

1508
01:04:14,859 --> 01:04:13,160
over there at the University of Western

1509
01:04:16,690 --> 01:04:14,869
Australia most likely American

1510
01:04:18,460 --> 01:04:16,700
University of Westminster and I think

1511
01:04:20,319 --> 01:04:18,470
it's all going very well we're just

1512
01:04:22,329 --> 01:04:20,329
trying to get ourselves a little bit of

1513
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:22,339
funding to cover a affairs I mean we're

1514
01:04:25,390 --> 01:04:24,050
not bit we're not going to get paid

1515
01:04:27,190 --> 01:04:25,400
obviously for talking or being there

1516
01:04:29,620 --> 01:04:27,200
anything like that but we just need to

1517
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:29,630
get there so if anybody's in Perth and

1518
01:04:34,690 --> 01:04:31,490
would like to help us you can contact

1519
01:04:36,309 --> 01:04:34,700
Kylie via our website or you can happily

1520
01:04:38,650 --> 01:04:36,319
donate to the skeptics island that will

1521
01:04:40,450 --> 01:04:38,660
help us to yeah which would be great to

1522
01:04:41,740 --> 01:04:40,460
go and do some lectures in Perth we're

1523
01:04:42,690 --> 01:04:41,750
really looking forward to it really one

1524
01:04:44,250 --> 01:04:42,700
I hope that

1525
01:04:47,700 --> 01:04:44,260
we can do this after Melbourne which was

1526
01:04:50,310 --> 01:04:47,710
so accepting all right I'm going to

1527
01:04:52,170 --> 01:04:50,320
throw open the floodgates to you first

1528
01:04:55,500 --> 01:04:52,180
of all dr. eat you with your item of

1529
01:04:57,390 --> 01:04:55,510
news well yes I think some people may

1530
01:04:59,130 --> 01:04:57,400
have heard about this but we are very

1531
01:05:01,980 --> 01:04:59,140
very proud at the zone to announce that

1532
01:05:04,020 --> 01:05:01,990
we have managed to wrangle Simon Singh

1533
01:05:06,510 --> 01:05:04,030
to come to Sydney he's going to be

1534
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:06,520
giving a lecture a public lecture on the

1535
01:05:13,500 --> 01:05:08,770
fifteenth of july at the seymour centre

1536
01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:13,510
in sydney and that is hosted by sydney

1537
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:15,280
ideas but Simon has been brought to

1538
01:05:19,589 --> 01:05:17,170
australia by the Adelaide Festival of

1539
01:05:23,069 --> 01:05:19,599
ideas so if you're in Adelaide he's also

1540
01:05:26,220 --> 01:05:23,079
doing a seminar as he mentioned earlier

1541
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:26,230
in his interview on the sunday the 12th

1542
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:27,280
and he's doing a couple of panels

1543
01:05:31,260 --> 01:05:30,010
throughout the weekend as well but if

1544
01:05:33,750 --> 01:05:31,270
you are in Sydney and you want to come

1545
01:05:36,180 --> 01:05:33,760
to the lecture if you go to the website

1546
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:36,190
just do a search for Sydney ideas and

1547
01:05:40,099 --> 01:05:38,410
Simon Singh and you can get a special

1548
01:05:43,079 --> 01:05:40,109
skeptics discount price for tickets

1549
01:05:45,599 --> 01:05:43,089
normal price is twenty dollars and you

1550
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:45,609
can get them for ten dollars if you go

1551
01:05:49,859 --> 01:05:46,930
to the website and type in the

1552
01:05:52,559 --> 01:05:49,869
promotional code skeptics 09 is that

1553
01:05:56,339 --> 01:05:52,569
skeptics with me the K and an S on hand

1554
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:56,349
yes get a predicts 09 with a k you can

1555
01:06:00,510 --> 01:05:58,720
get tickets for ten dollars yeah so

1556
01:06:02,339 --> 01:06:00,520
we're very excited that Simon's been

1557
01:06:04,859 --> 01:06:02,349
able to come to see me so that's great

1558
01:06:06,870 --> 01:06:04,869
yeah yeah and it was it was nice to her

1559
01:06:08,819 --> 01:06:06,880
it was a nice that you were able to

1560
01:06:09,839 --> 01:06:08,829
interview him that our listeners would

1561
01:06:11,490 --> 01:06:09,849
have heard earlier in the show and

1562
01:06:13,230 --> 01:06:11,500
actually what you didn't hear was I was

1563
01:06:14,339 --> 01:06:13,240
sitting on producing that in the

1564
01:06:17,700 --> 01:06:14,349
background that was a great interview

1565
01:06:19,020 --> 01:06:17,710
yeah it was good you yep so a lot of his

1566
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:19,030
talk is going to be about trick or

1567
01:06:23,579 --> 01:06:20,650
treatment in fact him he's going to do a

1568
01:06:25,559 --> 01:06:23,589
lot of talk about alternative medicine

1569
01:06:27,329 --> 01:06:25,569
and the alternative medicine modalities

1570
01:06:29,130 --> 01:06:27,339
that he addressed in the book trick or

1571
01:06:30,750 --> 01:06:29,140
treat men with great book yeah and

1572
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:30,760
tastic I mean all his books are great I

1573
01:06:34,109 --> 01:06:32,410
read the code book and I couldn't put it

1574
01:06:36,599 --> 01:06:34,119
down yeah seriously I was up all night

1575
01:06:38,730 --> 01:06:36,609
it was it's a brilliant way to learn all

1576
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:38,740
about codes and ciphers he explains it

1577
01:06:44,579 --> 01:06:42,130
so well and need the Enigma machine from

1578
01:06:45,750 --> 01:06:44,589
the Second World War yep you read sew

1579
01:06:47,550 --> 01:06:45,760
ins book and you understand how the

1580
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:47,560
bloody thing work it's it's he's a

1581
01:06:51,030 --> 01:06:48,730
really good writer well he's actually

1582
01:06:52,740 --> 01:06:51,040
getting some really big media interest

1583
01:06:54,150 --> 01:06:52,750
in Australia because of this too I

1584
01:06:56,339 --> 01:06:54,160
actually and I think it's going to

1585
01:06:58,799 --> 01:06:56,349
really put the whole bc

1586
01:07:00,420 --> 01:06:58,809
libel case in the spotlight in Australia

1587
01:07:02,279 --> 01:07:00,430
which yeah I think it's really good

1588
01:07:04,499 --> 01:07:02,289
because because we know all about it but

1589
01:07:05,849 --> 01:07:04,509
the job the general public don't and in

1590
01:07:08,099 --> 01:07:05,859
fact I was talking to a journalist a

1591
01:07:11,519 --> 01:07:08,109
couple of days ago about chiropractic in

1592
01:07:13,109 --> 01:07:11,529
general and he said to me well most

1593
01:07:15,170 --> 01:07:13,119
people in the ennis the Australian

1594
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:15,180
public don't know it's quackery and

1595
01:07:19,019 --> 01:07:17,890
although not all of it is quackery the

1596
01:07:20,549 --> 01:07:19,029
bits where they say they can cure

1597
01:07:24,079 --> 01:07:20,559
deafness and colic and things like that

1598
01:07:28,140 --> 01:07:24,089
in children is potentially and allegedly

1599
01:07:31,650 --> 01:07:28,150
quackery notice what I said they're

1600
01:07:34,650 --> 01:07:31,660
little bit leged Lee some people have

1601
01:07:36,900 --> 01:07:34,660
said some people may have said there is

1602
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:36,910
some suggestion that I think you can say

1603
01:07:42,299 --> 01:07:40,450
that there's no evidence for don t you

1604
01:07:43,829 --> 01:07:42,309
can say small enough evidence well I've

1605
01:07:46,140 --> 01:07:43,839
heard some people have allegedly said

1606
01:07:47,370 --> 01:07:46,150
that anyway go on but interestingly in

1607
01:07:48,690 --> 01:07:47,380
Australia and I don't know if it's the

1608
01:07:50,849 --> 01:07:48,700
same in other parts of the world you

1609
01:07:52,950 --> 01:07:50,859
know our private health funds cover

1610
01:07:54,900 --> 01:07:52,960
things like that they cover chiropractic

1611
01:07:57,509 --> 01:07:54,910
as well as acupuncture and some sort of

1612
01:08:00,420 --> 01:07:57,519
you know aroma therapies and things like

1613
01:08:02,940 --> 01:08:00,430
that I try to remove the coven wine

1614
01:08:05,609 --> 01:08:02,950
actually called my help fund and try to

1615
01:08:06,749 --> 01:08:05,619
remove cover for unproven modality I

1616
01:08:08,729 --> 01:08:06,759
basically said I do not I'm not

1617
01:08:10,910 --> 01:08:08,739
interested in paying for anything that's

1618
01:08:14,190 --> 01:08:10,920
unproven yeah I want that removed and

1619
01:08:15,599 --> 01:08:14,200
it's just not possible no an option well

1620
01:08:18,450 --> 01:08:15,609
that's interesting because just recently

1621
01:08:20,339 --> 01:08:18,460
a health provider private health

1622
01:08:22,289 --> 01:08:20,349
provider in this country has put up ads

1623
01:08:24,629 --> 01:08:22,299
I don't know if you've seen them Joe

1624
01:08:26,039 --> 01:08:24,639
they say you can modify your cover now

1625
01:08:27,649 --> 01:08:26,049
to choose whether you want less

1626
01:08:32,070 --> 01:08:27,659
alternative therapies and more

1627
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:32,080
conventional so maybe the tides turning

1628
01:08:34,950 --> 01:08:33,489
a little bit maybe there have been more

1629
01:08:36,329 --> 01:08:34,960
people like yourself ringing up and

1630
01:08:38,459 --> 01:08:36,339
saying I'm not paying for this nonsense

1631
01:08:41,300 --> 01:08:38,469
I wondered whether I saw those ads

1632
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:41,310
actually as well and I noted that they

1633
01:08:47,579 --> 01:08:44,770
specifically said the person he answered

1634
01:08:50,430 --> 01:08:47,589
I would like less alternative therapies

1635
01:08:52,890 --> 01:08:50,440
and more you know optical or something

1636
01:08:56,839 --> 01:08:52,900
yeah therapy or everything that adds the

1637
01:08:59,339 --> 01:08:56,849
lipton tea yes whether they're in the

1638
01:09:02,339 --> 01:08:59,349
alternative salon and she's green tea oh

1639
01:09:04,499 --> 01:09:02,349
this is gone yeah it's better than the

1640
01:09:05,420 --> 01:09:04,509
mud with stepping on my face we're back

1641
01:09:09,170 --> 01:09:05,430
yard

1642
01:09:12,230 --> 01:09:09,180
that's actually really funny hat lipton

1643
01:09:14,030 --> 01:09:12,240
green tea green tea for this is really

1644
01:09:15,590 --> 01:09:14,040
good for you just as well because our

1645
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:15,600
treatments have no therapeutic benefit

1646
01:09:20,510 --> 01:09:19,170
whatsoever mmm of course I'm only here

1647
01:09:22,460 --> 01:09:20,520
so I can boast about it to the girls at

1648
01:09:23,870 --> 01:09:22,470
tennis so you'd be looking forward to

1649
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:23,880
[\h__\h] out a hundred and fifty dollars

1650
01:09:28,610 --> 01:09:26,130
for me to slot model over you well it is

1651
01:09:33,140 --> 01:09:28,620
so fabulously exclusive exclusive

1652
01:09:35,390 --> 01:09:33,150
leaving their very own backyard now

1653
01:09:38,410 --> 01:09:35,400
that's refreshing and naturally rich in

1654
01:09:42,230 --> 01:09:38,420
antioxidants lipton tea can do that

1655
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:42,240
that's your rat now Joe has an old brand

1656
01:09:45,860 --> 01:09:44,730
which is not really a rant well not

1657
01:09:47,630 --> 01:09:45,870
really around what have you got there

1658
01:09:51,380 --> 01:09:47,640
John but it's a Segway I believe it's a

1659
01:09:53,990 --> 01:09:51,390
Segway it's some really interesting

1660
01:09:56,450 --> 01:09:54,000
little tidbit that i came across today

1661
01:09:58,220 --> 01:09:56,460
while i was looking up bum only know if

1662
01:10:00,620 --> 01:09:58,230
i was actually looking up something to

1663
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:00,630
do with them homeopathy and malaria

1664
01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:02,970
because i come across a case it was

1665
01:10:09,230 --> 01:10:06,450
actually a weird little connection about

1666
01:10:13,130 --> 01:10:09,240
a woman who had suffered some severe

1667
01:10:15,290 --> 01:10:13,140
consequences of not taking prophylactic

1668
01:10:21,220 --> 01:10:15,300
treatment for malaria prior to traveling

1669
01:10:23,300 --> 01:10:21,230
to it was toga toga toga in Africa yeah

1670
01:10:27,860 --> 01:10:23,310
sorry if I get the name that country

1671
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:27,870
wrong but she suffered you know ended up

1672
01:10:31,990 --> 01:10:29,370
in ICU for months and months and months

1673
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:32,000
with severe constant you know

1674
01:10:35,900 --> 01:10:34,290
consequences of untreated malaria

1675
01:10:37,430 --> 01:10:35,910
because I'm takin homeopathic remedies

1676
01:10:39,170 --> 01:10:37,440
in the cot in the process of looking

1677
01:10:42,740 --> 01:10:39,180
this all up I came across this really

1678
01:10:46,580 --> 01:10:42,750
interesting little piece from it's from

1679
01:10:51,170 --> 01:10:46,590
1851 and it's from I think the London

1680
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:51,180
journal of medicine and if 1815 1881

1681
01:10:56,810 --> 01:10:55,050
audio yeah 1851 and if you'll bear with

1682
01:10:59,480 --> 01:10:56,820
me I'll read you a little bit of it

1683
01:11:06,470 --> 01:10:59,490
because it's quite astounding and it's

1684
01:11:10,390 --> 01:11:06,480
from a doctor by the name of Cormac just

1685
01:11:16,939 --> 01:11:14,479
yeah dr. Carmack and it's regarding

1686
01:11:18,590 --> 01:11:16,949
their relations with homeopathy to the

1687
01:11:22,700 --> 01:11:18,600
editor of the provincial medical and

1688
01:11:26,660 --> 01:11:22,710
surgical journal July 29 1851 and dr.

1689
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:26,670
Cormac says to adopt resolutions setting

1690
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:28,770
forth that the homeopathic dogma and the

1691
01:11:34,550 --> 01:11:31,650
doctrine of infinitesimal doses have no

1692
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:34,560
truthful basis and are in fact men

1693
01:11:40,130 --> 01:11:37,650
nonsensical delusions maybe quite proper

1694
01:11:42,290 --> 01:11:40,140
in as much as some honest but weak and

1695
01:11:44,180 --> 01:11:42,300
undisciplined mines have been seduced by

1696
01:11:45,979 --> 01:11:44,190
the hardy assertions and false reasoning

1697
01:11:48,470 --> 01:11:45,989
by which these errors have been

1698
01:11:51,860 --> 01:11:48,480
supported but something more is required

1699
01:11:54,290 --> 01:11:51,870
if it be true as I think it is that this

1700
01:11:56,290 --> 01:11:54,300
fashionable quackery is so susceptible

1701
01:11:58,939 --> 01:11:56,300
of adaptation to the most contradictory

1702
01:12:01,280 --> 01:11:58,949
prejudices of shallow men and women as

1703
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:01,290
to have become a sort of protein deceit

1704
01:12:12,979 --> 01:12:04,650
able to lure lucca by every imaginable

1705
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:12,989
while from the sick and vasily oh LOL we

1706
01:12:21,050 --> 01:12:17,570
go from the secon decision for yourself

1707
01:12:23,660 --> 01:12:21,060
the worst part of homeopathy is in my

1708
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:23,670
opinion the dishonesty of the majority

1709
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:26,489
of those who live by it when patients

1710
01:12:31,610 --> 01:12:29,010
are once secured they are I think very

1711
01:12:34,130 --> 01:12:31,620
rarely treated in accordance with the

1712
01:12:36,020 --> 01:12:34,140
principles of Hanuman but are retained

1713
01:12:39,020 --> 01:12:36,030
by the combination of every current

1714
01:12:41,450 --> 01:12:39,030
medical novelty which made the time be

1715
01:12:45,229 --> 01:12:41,460
most in favor with the money throng of

1716
01:12:47,990 --> 01:12:45,239
quack fences attention please members

1717
01:12:49,670 --> 01:12:48,000
and get it is now 925 p.m. and in five

1718
01:12:51,650 --> 01:12:49,680
minutes time or persons over the age of

1719
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:51,660
18 must be scored from the premises

1720
01:12:58,640 --> 01:12:55,530
thank you it's not a bus announced a

1721
01:13:00,979 --> 01:12:58,650
beaver bus announcement event continues

1722
01:13:03,590 --> 01:13:00,989
if homeopathy you were honestly

1723
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:03,600
practiced it might be annika amicably

1724
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:05,730
dealt with but as it is truly a

1725
01:13:10,729 --> 01:13:07,770
combination of any and every available

1726
01:13:12,830 --> 01:13:10,739
Charlotte Charlotte anak trick it cannot

1727
01:13:15,290 --> 01:13:12,840
be effectively opposed as a distinct

1728
01:13:17,300 --> 01:13:15,300
medical heresy and therefore all that

1729
01:13:17,810 --> 01:13:17,310
remains for us as men of science and

1730
01:13:20,660 --> 01:13:17,820
rendering

1731
01:13:22,450 --> 01:13:20,670
30 is to give notice that we exclude

1732
01:13:24,950 --> 01:13:22,460
from all professional intercourse

1733
01:13:27,169 --> 01:13:24,960
practitioners who are in any way engaged

1734
01:13:30,020 --> 01:13:27,179
in using or upholding assist in which we

1735
01:13:34,939 --> 01:13:30,030
think bears upon its very face fraud as

1736
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:34,949
well as absurdity wow I find a terrible

1737
01:13:41,689 --> 01:13:37,770
person I find it terribly depressing I

1738
01:13:45,530 --> 01:13:41,699
150 years years of past enough enough

1739
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:45,540
that Iran yep um I'm sure I've been

1740
01:13:50,959 --> 01:13:48,449
trying to look into good pharmacies mmm

1741
01:13:52,490 --> 01:13:50,969
for a while so whenever I go past the

1742
01:13:58,149 --> 01:13:52,500
pharmacy I go in and have a look and see

1743
01:14:00,290 --> 01:13:58,159
whether they sell any quite great any

1744
01:14:03,020 --> 01:14:00,300
better mentor definitely if they sell

1745
01:14:06,979 --> 01:14:03,030
anything that's with some medical claim

1746
01:14:08,569 --> 01:14:06,989
and I make a list of those who don't now

1747
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:08,579
i only found one place that actually

1748
01:14:13,939 --> 01:14:12,090
doesn't sell anything that's not from a

1749
01:14:17,450 --> 01:14:13,949
suti call or you know just this stuff

1750
01:14:20,270 --> 01:14:17,460
like stuff like toothpaste I'm Selena

1751
01:14:22,879 --> 01:14:20,280
anything nobody no vitamins is stuff

1752
01:14:24,530 --> 01:14:22,889
like that only one place but a fun about

1753
01:14:26,750 --> 01:14:24,540
three or four places they do not sell

1754
01:14:30,229 --> 01:14:26,760
anything that has medical claims

1755
01:14:31,879 --> 01:14:30,239
attached to it without evidence and I

1756
01:14:33,589 --> 01:14:31,889
thought it might be a good idea to make

1757
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:33,599
a list of public list of these places

1758
01:14:41,180 --> 01:14:38,489
and so listeners know of such places

1759
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:41,190
maybe they could send us the details and

1760
01:14:45,169 --> 01:14:43,770
people and we'll publish it somewhere

1761
01:14:47,569 --> 01:14:45,179
we'll have to probably think about where

1762
01:14:50,270 --> 01:14:47,579
we do it in what form that's um probably

1763
01:14:52,069 --> 01:14:50,280
Twitter tonight Seif Twitter to if

1764
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:52,079
listeners go to a contact page at the

1765
01:14:58,520 --> 01:14:55,170
skeptic zone TV you'll find Iran's email

1766
01:15:00,800 --> 01:14:58,530
oh yeah Iran at skeptic zone TV and they

1767
01:15:02,209 --> 01:15:00,810
can send you yeah yeah just that we

1768
01:15:05,300 --> 01:15:02,219
found anything and anyone in the world

1769
01:15:08,089 --> 01:15:05,310
as well because that is you know to just

1770
01:15:10,850 --> 01:15:08,099
give these people who do the right thing

1771
01:15:14,089 --> 01:15:10,860
a bit of a boost hmm what a good idea

1772
01:15:18,020 --> 01:15:14,099
what a good idea ok price later on well

1773
01:15:20,959 --> 01:15:18,030
um how exciting mamando in iran off to

1774
01:15:23,089 --> 01:15:20,969
town next week absolutely yes time nice

1775
01:15:27,049 --> 01:15:23,099
week this time next week be sitting in

1776
01:15:28,020 --> 01:15:27,059
my row something in a 380 Joe and I will

1777
01:15:32,799 --> 01:15:28,030
take over

1778
01:15:36,489 --> 01:15:32,809
don't mention the a318 a319 channa i buy

1779
01:15:39,549 --> 01:15:36,499
a 380 in Vegas the downside is it's a

1780
01:15:42,669 --> 01:15:39,559
Qantas one but where does it might get a

1781
01:15:45,069 --> 01:15:42,679
hole in them but we love points we love

1782
01:15:47,020 --> 01:15:45,079
all hello I'm just frequent flyer hello

1783
01:15:49,209 --> 01:15:47,030
know who have the best safety record in

1784
01:15:51,250 --> 01:15:49,219
the world I do quanis event I would fly

1785
01:15:52,779 --> 01:15:51,260
with Qantas anytime anywhere I think

1786
01:15:56,049 --> 01:15:52,789
they're the best airline and address

1787
01:15:57,399 --> 01:15:56,059
must I must say I flying with them is

1788
01:15:59,589 --> 01:15:57,409
not the problem but if you're trying to

1789
01:16:03,479 --> 01:15:59,599
get customer service that's enough

1790
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:03,489
message that and they'll sort it out

1791
01:16:08,739 --> 01:16:05,690
happened to Adam Savage this week on

1792
01:16:11,669 --> 01:16:08,749
Twitter did you about that yeah he had a

1793
01:16:14,469 --> 01:16:11,679
bill from a particular talent at ELQ I

1794
01:16:16,449 --> 01:16:14,479
AT&T yes for how much less than a

1795
01:16:19,299 --> 01:16:16,459
hundred thousand dollars were there many

1796
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:19,309
dollars and he tweeted that and said

1797
01:16:22,359 --> 01:16:20,690
this is ridiculous and everyone

1798
01:16:23,770 --> 01:16:22,369
retweeted it and they eventually called

1799
01:16:28,569 --> 01:16:23,780
him i said i don't worry about that and

1800
01:16:33,370 --> 01:16:28,579
cancelled the bill i got a huge gas bill

1801
01:16:35,739 --> 01:16:33,380
yeah yeah but i may be justified oh it's

1802
01:16:38,410 --> 01:16:35,749
oh I didn't realize that you had to be

1803
01:16:40,199 --> 01:16:38,420
done justice yeah generally speaking no

1804
01:16:44,410 --> 01:16:40,209
because I just I'm not happy with it

1805
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:44,420
good enough it's a dark for a while I'm

1806
01:16:47,919 --> 01:16:46,489
going home to look at my twitter Amanda

1807
01:16:50,049 --> 01:16:47,929
thank you very much for being with us

1808
01:16:52,589 --> 01:16:50,059
tonight Iran Thank You jatha you guys

1809
01:17:30,009 --> 01:16:52,599
enjoy your trip we won't miss you Oh

1810
01:17:35,569 --> 01:17:32,689
thank you for joining us here today for

1811
01:17:37,489 --> 01:17:35,579
a skeptic zone and don't forget you can

1812
01:17:39,709 --> 01:17:37,499
contribute to the Perth tour of the

1813
01:17:42,139 --> 01:17:39,719
skeptic zone with Richard Saunders and

1814
01:17:44,989 --> 01:17:42,149
dr. Rachel Dunlop at the University of

1815
01:17:49,810 --> 01:17:44,999
Western Australia in early August check

1816
01:17:55,179 --> 01:17:49,820
out the site at wwc a pegs on TV and

1817
01:17:58,790 --> 01:17:55,189
also our blog at wwc aiptek zone

1818
01:18:00,949 --> 01:17:58,800
wordpress com we will feature more news

1819
01:18:02,929 --> 01:18:00,959
and details as it comes to hand but we

1820
01:18:05,209 --> 01:18:02,939
can really appreciate some donations

1821
01:18:08,149 --> 01:18:05,219
just by clicking on the paypal button or

1822
01:18:10,310 --> 01:18:08,159
contacting us on the side join us again

1823
01:18:12,919 --> 01:18:10,320
next week when we talk to Shane Killian

1824
01:18:15,409 --> 01:18:12,929
yes he of the bogo city videos and

1825
01:18:18,109 --> 01:18:15,419
Richard pays a visit to the Australian

1826
01:18:23,989 --> 01:18:18,119
Museum in Sydney thanks and stay

1827
01:18:28,250 --> 01:18:23,999
skeptical you've been listening to the

1828
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:28,260
skeptic zone visit our website at wwc a

1829
01:18:35,500 --> 01:18:31,530
petting zoo TV for comments contacts and